Fellow Wordaholics,

I only recently discovered that we have this Forum available at Wordsmith, or I would have appealed to you earlier. June 30, AWAD gave us the word "telic" and went on to state that "telephone" is derived from the same root. I believe this is wrong, and all of my references, online, in print, and living, concur. The "tele" of telephone is not the same as the "tel" of telic.

I am surprised to see that no one else has commented on this, so perhaps you also believe AWAD's etymology? It is wrong.

Or does someone out there want to try to explain how "telephone" is related to "telic"?

Regards,

Slava

Dear Slava: glad to see your word post. It is quite possible that "telic" and "telephone" do not come from the exact same Greek word, but I know too little Greek to check for "telos = end" and "tele- = distant". I does seem that they much be related. Please give more details of the difference you refer to.

in AHD4's Apx I (IE Roots) you will find two entries,
kwel-¹ (To revolve, move around, sojourn, dwell), which is given as the ultimate root of telo- ; and
kwel-² (Far (in space and time)), as the ultimate root of tele-. Does this mean that there are two separate, unrelated roots; or are the two related somehow other than their anglicized renderings?

Here is the comment I received from a Professor of Greek in the US:

The Greek *tElou* and *tEle* "far away" cannot be DERIVED FROM *telos* meaning "end, goal,* etc.

Any imagined derivation of *tElou" or *tEle* from a supposed datival usage of *telos* meaning "at the end" is simply imaginary.

To start with, the quality of the first vowel is wrong since *tElou, tEle* have eta (a long vowel) in the first syllable while *telos* has an epsilon (a short vowel) in the first syllable.

Second, *telos* has a different semantic field. It is related to *tellesthai* and *tellein*. These are the passive form (*telesthati* = "to come to pass") and the active form (*tellein* = "to accomplish") of the same verb. Thus the noun *telos* has as its basic meaning "a coming to pass, performance, consummation, result."

This would seem to me to be a fairly thourough refutation of AWAD's assertion, but AWAD has not issued a rebuttal or a correction as yet.

I'm trying several Word sites to see if anyone can support AWAD's etymology, but so far no one has.

Slava, the IE roots would predate anything the Greek professor was talking about, but I still can't answer the root question. :}

Hello Slava and welcome to the board!!

This is a very interesting point that you bring up! I am however, somewhat confused and have a bunch of questions.

1. What is the English prefix, 'tele', derived from? I understand, from your post, that it is NOT 'telos'; is there a Greek 'tele' that the English one derives from and do they both mean, a far distance?

2. You also write that the Greek telos is a noun. The argument then, is probably won here itself. Doesn't it sound like semantic cacophony to have an English *prefix derive from a Greek *noun? Or does it? of troy is * not going to be amused by that hesitant add-on .....

3. *telos* has as its basic meaning "a coming to pass, performance, consummation, result."

Any other words that derive from telos? As I write, two words immediately spring to mind; Telencephalon and Philatelic. Telencephalon (development anatomy term for the part of the forebrain, from which the cerebral hemispheres develop), I can extend to telos; it being the anterior *end of the brain.
Philatelic, if derived from telos, makes no sense at all....

From Internet:


In November 1864 the French paper "Le Collectionneur des Timbres - Poste" (1) published an unsigned article under the title of "Baptême". This article was due to Mons. Herpin one of the most learned amateurs of his epoch who proposed the term "Philately" for the Science dealing with stamps. This hobby was known up to that time under the names of "Timbrology" or "Timbrophily". Some people even used to call it "Timbromania" being unable to explain otherwise the real mania with which the rare collectors of that time were devoted to Stamp collecting.



The term was constructed, as Mons. Herpin explained further, in about the same manner as the word "Numismatics", i.e. the Science dealing with the collection of coins. There is a difference however for, whereas the term "Numismatics" has been created from the Latin word "Numisma" (coin), the term "Philately" was constructed from the two Greek words "Philos" (friend) & "Ateleia" (enfranchisement, payment of postage duty)! meaning the science dealing with the study of enfranchisemnet, of what proves the payment of the postage duty and concequently of the stamps.

Interesting turn, there, getting to philately. A word actually derived from telikos would be teleology, or the June 30 word of the day, telic.

Teleology is the study of the evidence of design in nature, in other words and end goal.

The "tele" of telephone is derived from a different Greek root, meaning "far away."

However, AWAD stated, when giving telic as the word of the day: [From Greek telikos, from telos (end). The word telephone comes from the same root.]

How many other such specious etymologies has Wordsmith provided?

"How many other such specious etymologies has Wordsmith provided?"
Like most of the members, Wordsmith depends on his dictionaries. You're the only member who knows a Greek professor. Makes you extra welcome.

If, as you say, Wordsmith depends on his dictionaries, I want to know which ones they are and how they come to such an etymology. I have to make sure I never buy such drivel.

My second major in college may have been the Classics, but I'd be very surprised to find that I'm the only member with a Greek professor in his background.

What I find shocking is that no one else seems to have questioned the statement that telephone was derived from "telikos." Pretty much from the day I learned the word telephone, I knew its etymology, and then someone suddenly tries to tell me that the rest of the world is wrong.

I once met someone from Iceland, where they work very hard to keep foreign words out of the language. Their word for telephone is a combination of ancient Icelandic roots meaning "far away" and "sound," just as the English.

I have to make sure I never buy such drivel.

welcome to the board, Slava.

I'm not going to become a wordsmith apologizer, but if you can show that a large number of the etymologies/definitions have been incorrect, then we can start to wonder, but drivel? for one incorrect etymology? methinks I hear the grindstone turning...

>If, as you say, Wordsmith depends on his dictionaries, I want to know which ones they are and how they come to such an etymology. I have to make sure I never buy such drivel.

I'd suggest you take this up with Anu via the Feedback feature [see bottom of page]; you're unlikely to get any satisfaction by complaining in these forums, as he very seldom contributes here.

Actually, I took it up with Anu the day the original message came out. His response was not satisfactory, and there has been no correction issued. Rather a shame, I think.

I think that Wordsmith is so goddam busy he can't
spend any time with us.We should be grateful for
the excellent facilllities we have such free use
of. And I'm glad when I see members more
knowledgeable than I am making additions
and corrections.
What have you for an encore, Slava?

Any other words that derive from telos?

I haven't looked up their derivations to verify, but I would offer that in cellular biology when one examines chromosomes they show identifiable parts, of which two are the centromere -- near the middle of the chromosome -- and the telomere(-s) at the end.