YART Alert "an historical site"

I know this was hashed out among you earlier, but I don't know as you have explored all posibilites. You used the example of "an hotel" which to my North American ears sounds stilted and does not flow trippingly off of the tongue, BUT "an historical" flows very well as "a historical" does not. Any comments?

Strange to say, the same thing occurred to me just the other day. I am an 'an hotel' person - though I was thumped on it by a Sales Manager whose wife looked up Fowler which states that it is archaic and isn't really best practice business writing. Well, yah boo sucks to Fowler say I.

Funnilly enough, though, I find the American 'erb jarring, and would probably say 'a herb', not 'an herb'. But 'an historical', not 'a historical'.

It's all custom and practice, that's what I think.

I usually say "an" if the h is silent. An herb. But if I pronounce the h then I use "a." A hospital. I think I picked up the habbit from Spanish class. For example, a feminine word that starts with "a" gets the masculine article because it is easier to say. You would say el agua, as apposed to la agua even though agua should be a feminine word. Another example would be el algebra. They just taste better that way.

They just taste better that way.

A word gourmet. Brava.

In reply to:
I usually say "an" if the h is silent. An herb. But if I pronounce the h then I use "a." A hospital. I think I picked up the habbit from Spanish class. For example, a feminine word that starts with "a" gets the masculine article because it is easier to say. You would say el agua, as apposed to la agua even though agua should be a feminine word. Another example would be el algebra.

Intriguing. I find it interesting that you pick herb as an example of a word with a "silent" h. I'm with shanks on this one, a herb, a horse, an historical, an hotel. The "el algebra" brought a smile to my face for the way that etymology can create redundant pairings - one source list algebra as derived from the Arabic al-jebr - the union of broken parts, or according to another source, the resetting of anything broken - so in this case el al is "the the" rather than an airline. Which doesn't change the fact that algebra always left my synapses feeling like broken parts in need of resetting.

The an hotel vs a hotel is one that editorial conferences have gone round and round on ad nauseum. The "An" and "A" sides equally adamant. The Editor's preference won, every time. Ours is not to reason why but to follow the Editor even if he/she flies out the window.
I have to have to agree with shanks

yet again. One exception being an herb which I pronounce as an 'erb.
An Herb sounds like an nice person, but would you want her at your garden party?

Herb is definately an interesting example, did I hear once that "erb" was a bastardization of the spanish word that British folk (canadians,aussies, NZers, etc.)pronounce the H? Not sure where I remember that from. Feel free to shoot me down!

All� Drum,

In French we say une herbe to mean greenery that grows in the ground that you either mow or put in food. We do not pronounce the H. In older cooking shows they always pronounced the H. Then some 8 or 10 years ago it bacame fashionable to NOT pronounce the H as a sign of haute cuisine. It reminds me of the disagreements concerning the pronunciation of Porshe (POR-SHA, PORSH, POR-CHE) or

the Latin C.

Oooo Drum, did you win your elections?

A bit of info for the rest of board, Canada has just held national elections for Prime Minister. The election notice was given five weeks ago. We voted on Monday. Final results were got and done with Tuesday in the wee hours of the morning.

P.S. - and nobody is sueing anybody else (just kidding my U.S. pals, I just had to get that in there. What is it that Flip Wilson used to say, "the devil made me do it."

)

Canada has just held national elections for Prime Minister

Whaaa-aat - you didn't wait for Moving Day?

Where's the sense in that?!

Shona!

(all right, I know I am supposed to say something prim and properly WORDISH in Q&A but Fisk definitely asked for a raspberry

)

The closest I have heard to a rule on this is that if the h is not sounded and the initial syllable is accented the proper article is a, but if the initial syllable is not accented the proper article is an

Does HTML work here? Please forgive me if it doesn't.

As a side note, I have thought that the thorny (�e?) question of whether the initial h was pronounced in a Latin word could be resolved (or at least attacked) by determining whether the corresponding word in a modern Romance language followed some rule or other, which rule being dependent on the language. E.g., French mute h as in l'herbe vs. non-mute h as in la hauteur.

OK, HTML doesn't work (Seufz!). I also see that I am a stranger. There are those who know me say they don't come much more so.

Hi Faldage

No HTML doesn't work but markup does. If you click on the purple bit a the top right of the "reply" screen it will give you a few tips.

A good tip is that yellow isn't a very useful colour for posts.

Don't worry about being a stranger. We have all been strangers. There is a thread called Graduation to fill you in.

>Canada has just held national elections

And Gore asked for a recount in PEI, asserting he has a 50-50 chance at becoming PM if enough of votes there are in his favor.

Thanks, jmh. Markup seems to be, at least for my purposes, not too different from HTML

I wasn't worried about being a stranger.

Dear JMH, Would you be kind enough to re-post your last message? I cannot read yellow words, they're just a blur. Does anyone else have trouble with the yellow? Or am I really THAT old.
wow

>Or am I really THAT old

Would I dare insinuate such a thing!

By the way a good tip with those awkward yellow posts is to highlight them, then all is revealed - but you knew that didn't you?

In reply to:
>Canada has just held national elections

And Gore asked for a recount in PEI, asserting he has a 50-50 chance at becoming PM if enough of votes there are in his favor.

I'm just back from the Philippines. One of the things which struck me forcibly is that they are probably going to be looking for a new president PDQ. The current vice-president is 4ft 11in in her stockinged feet. Maybe Al Gore can provide some added weight in Manila? It is an island, just like PEI, but the resemblance ends there! Although, IMHO, Bush would feel more at home there ...

drum:

A belated welcome to a lovely place.

Back to your original question about pronouncing h's. You say that you would say and I presume write this title as "An Historical Examination of the Pronunciation of H." But would you write (and say) "An History of the Pronunciation" or "A History?" If you would use "an" in the first instance and "a" in the second, pray tell why.

>I'm just back from the Philippines... The current vice-president is 4ft 11in in her stockinged feet.

Shame Imelda didn't leave any of her shoes lying around.

"An Historical Examination of the Pronunciation of H." But would you write (and say) "An History of the Pronunciation" or "A History?"

TEd:
It is a lovely place, but to answer your question:

I just have to quote xara and say "They just taste better!", [thanks xara] when you say "An Historical...". Would I say "An History...", nope. As to WHY , well I've never claimed to be consistent. Gawd only knows English ain't.

(Please notice the spelling of "Gawd", I don't want to become the next victim!)

Shame Imelda didn't leave any of her shoes lying around.

Maybe she did ... Ms Arroyo was certainly wearing high, high heels ....

The closest I have heard to a rule on this is that if the h is not sounded and the initial syllable is accented the proper article is a, but if the initial syllable is not accented the proper article is an.

Thus, a history vs. an historical. This would explain why "[t]hey just taste better!"