This is not strictly a question (nor an answer) about words, but about punctuation. I noticed that you are always putting the quotation-ending full point, question mark or the exclamation mark before the closing quotation mark. Then you just start the next sentence. Is it a rule? Here, we write both. Example? "This is a sentence!".

Waiting for enlightenment,

Lukasz

BTW: Do you place a comma before later-than-second "and"? "Orange, green, and red" or "Orange, green and red"?

Oh my goodness! The easiest way to start is to say that I follow the Associated Press Stylebook rules as learned at my Father's knee and therein after followed in the various editions of the Stylebok itself. The AP says "Periods always go inside quotation marks." Then the book says to "see quotaion marks...and that entry goes on for two pages covering more variations than at present I want to type in here !However one general rule is that if you are quoting someone the punctuation that goes with what you are quoting goes inside the quotes. (Whew!)
Commas -- the commas in a series are used to separate elements but are not used before the conjunction. Example is "I have oranges, apples and pears." If you used a comma before the conjunction "and" then you are using what is called The Oxford Comma according to that peerless userof the King's English, Inspector Morse. Should you, for some insane reason, want a copy of the Stylebook, contact your local Associated Press office or write to HQ at :
Stylebook, AP Newsfeatures
50 Rockefeller Plaza
New York, NY 10020
The last time I ordered one it was $8.75 per copy for non-members . It is cheaper for AP member newspapers, broadcast members and journalism departments and book stores serving AP member schools. Best to inquire. On the desk of any editor it is well worn and used. The book includes An A to Z list of guides to capitalization, abbreviation, punctuation, spelling, numerals and usage. Also guides and style for business and sports, a guide to punctuation and to computer terms and a bibliography. There is a basic libel manual. Also it has a guide for writing and submiting photos and photo captions and, finally, how to file a story on the wire. My latest copy is 1988. I must get a new one. With the Stylebook you are on the way to writing so that any newspaper editor will be delighted to see your copy. The delight in reading it will be relative to accuracy and content. Is this more than you wanted to know? Aloha, WOW

This is far more than I thought I'd get. Thank you very, very much. And I promise you all no more grammar nor punctuation on this board.

Important points you also have to know lukaszd, is that punctuation can vary according to languages, the country in which you are writing, and the forum to which your writing is aimed.

In Canadian French you never put a comma before the last 'and' (eg: orange, vert et rouge).

In Canadian English, you add the comma before the last ‘and’ if you are making a list, like “orange, green, and red”. This is applicable for personal and business correspondence, and for prose and poetry writing. You do not put a comma in front of the last ‘and’ for writing aimed at newspapers.

A comma is a pause in the sentence structure (I am sure one of our board’s more erudite members can tell you exactly what these sentence structures are called). If you would not normally pause while speaking you do not put a comma – as seen above in for personal and business and prose and poetry.

Also, since you are not from the U.S. it would be important to get a stylebook for your particular country. In Canada, we have rules that do not appear in the AP stylebook.

Well, my question did arise from my being aware of punctuation differences. English is not my mother (nor father ) tongue and having seen commas before 'and' I just wanted to know if they're obligatory - we never put a comma before our 'and' (which is simply 'i'), whether it is linking a list of terms or subclauses (unless, as always, it's an exception). We also put a comma before every subclause (unless precedeed by 'i', its synonyms and in some other cases, of course ) - that's why I have a terrible dillema every time I am to put/avoid it in an English sentence. I must admit, however, that I've always thought you anglophones share at least punctuation rules. Can somebody please explain me how the Empire did manage to last when its subjects couldn't even agree on whether to put a comma ?

>Can somebody please explain me how the Empire did manage to last when its subjects couldn't even agree on whether to put a comma?<

The (British, I assume you mean?) Empire also had problems agreeing how to spell and how to pronounce! Is this why it didn't last? IS this a universal rule? Did confusion about Latin pronounciation cause the end of that Roman Empire??? Ah, the unsuspected role of the language police in world history...

I read somewhere (Agatha Christie, I think, though Heaven only knows where she got it) that for every person who can't spell, there are seven who can't punctuate. I've often thought that figure was too low.

PS I'd only put a comma before 'and' if I was starting a new clause, and the new clause had a subject different from the main subject of the sentence. Even then, not always. That's the grammatical rule I learned, but sometimes the comma seems superfluous, so I miss it out.

>Is it a rule?

I found this rather tricky when I worked in New York for a while. I was always putting the commas and full stops(periods) in the wrong places but I was never completely sure of the difference. As I was working for a marketing department I had to have all my spelling and grammar looked over (oversighted - yuk) be a real American to make sure that the customers would not think that they had employed an idiot!!! The problem is that my UK grammar is a bit ropey too, so they may well have been right.

I think that we tend to put a comma or a full stop in different places according to whether the entire sentence is within the parenthesis or inverted commas. According to Wow's US stylebook - the AP says, "Periods always go inside quotation marks." I'm pretty sure that this was followed slavishly.

Good questions, wookie, and no simnple anwers, I'm afraid.

Style guides. Pah! I disdain them. (Probably because I've never had one .)

Yes, I tend to restrict punctuation when using "s to the area within the "s. But this is not, I think, universal. After, sometimes quotations are part of a larger sentence - which case you might well get punctuation that abuts, but does not enter, the realm of the "s. This also leaves one with the dilemma of having a sentence with full stops (periods) within it.

As for commas, I usually avoid them in lists, but if the objects making up the list are themselves long-ish phrases, then it seems to me to make sense to use the comma even before the 'and', so as to ensure there is no confusion about there being two items here (the penultimate and ultimate objects on the list) and not just the one object with a rather long descriptive phrase. Or is this too convoluted? (It's Monday morning and my brain's still too slow to think up an example...)

Dear Shanks .. the American English rules for the use of quotes within sentences is one of the things covered in the AP Stylebook. I said the entry was too long to copy on to screen but my decision was really because making an error in transcribing the meticulous examples would be only too easy to do. Buying a copy from the nearest AP office would assure "local" differences observed. Filing on the wire has universal criteria. Editors receiving copy from other nations would be familiar with common differences and would look up anything that seemed off/odd. The post was so long I didn't want to go into all the ramifications and permutations ... if I threw anyone off I do apologize. In my editing days I found the newer the writer the more commas! I am now converting to short sentences and giving up commas for Advent. Aloha, WOW

there are any number of style books, stunk & white's elements of style, or the NY Times style book-- slightly different than the AP style, or my favorite, the Economist style book (very simple! no periods after Mr or Mrs, very few commas, and yet very clear!) i think the ny times style book (or an abstract) is available on line at NYTimes.com.

any style works, if you are consistant. i went to college as an adult, and one english professor had marked up a paper, and then in the end gave me an A-- she went on to say she didn't like the style, (Economist) but i was consistant, and the meaning was clear.

Dear of Troy, My all time favorite to hand to new reporters/writers is Strunk & White "Elements of Style." As The New York Times stylebook and Economist are both excellent. I use the AP becase it is the most widely-used in USA and nearby places and because it is consistant and clear. The use is simple and easily understood and good examples are given. And it is a very reasonable price given all the information it contains. It was a suggestion as a place to begin for anyone who wants a practical guide to American English. I don't get a commission! Now I am going to stop. I heard those sighs of relief out there. Nearly blew me off my chair. Aloha, WOW

Just a little aside: there are now two AP syle books. THE book and the AP Alaska style book. I kid you not. Have you seen it, wow? We sell it at the bookstore, but I haven't had time to look through it yet (wondering if contains the aprocyphal "nine Eskimo words for 'snow'").

And yes, I agree: Strunk & White RULE!

Can somebody please explain me how the Empire did manage to last when its subjects couldn't even agree on whether to put a comma?

It didn't. It's got only one colony left, far as I know, and commas are quite scarce in Northern South America

>Can somebody please explain me how the Empire did manage to last when its subjects couldn't even agree on
whether to put a comma ?

Er, Lukas, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but...

I always loved Oscar Wilde's quote -- something to the effect of, "I worked all morning and inserted one comma; this afternoon I took it out."


Carpe rutila

Waiting for enlightenment

This is yet another question with the answer "It depends", is it not, lucasz?

Personally I find it difficult to keep punctuation within the quotes, as this can cause corruption of the meaning.
e.g.
To my amazement he said "We'll make this project on time"!
Why did you say "I can't take any more"?
and on the other hand:
He said "You could have knocked me down with a feather!"
He said "What do you think?"

IMHO it would be wrong to apply the exclamation marks and question marks within the quotes in the first two examples.

There's a bit of shorthand happening here, though. Because there should be some punctuation at the end of the sentences that contain the quotes, which we would indeed apply if the sentences didn't end with the quotes.

He said "You could have knocked me down with a feather!" whereas I merely shrugged my shoulders.

But I think:
He said "You could have knocked me down with a feather!".
is 'orrible!

But I think:
He said "You could have knocked me down with a feather!".
is 'orrible!

Worse still, perhaps, results from mixing and matching your previous examples, Fishy:

To my amazement he said "You could have knocked me down with a feather!"!
and
Why did you say "What do you think?"?

I learned it as "You could have knocked me over with a feather." Is it geography rearing its ugly head again?
wow

It has to be down - how else do we get the poetry of feather and down being linked?

Must be geography - I haven't actually ever heard your version...

To my amazement he said "You could have knocked me down with a feather!"!
and
Why did you say "What do you think?"?

I said "Yeurgh, chookman!"

Mind you... I know it's all a bit contrived, but assuming we can do away with an exclamation/question mark in each of the examples above, which one do we remove? Or seen from the other side, which takes precedence?

Mercy save us! You are right again the down-feather went right past my tired eyes . I'm spending far too much time on this board. I eat too much chocolate,too. Not giving up either. If I keep agreeing with you people are going to start to wonder .... Let 'em.
(Build the legend!) Aloha, wow