No I am not Milton, nor was meant to be
Am an attendant sod, one that will do
To swell a sentence, start a thread or two...

In any case, it was the 'post-modernist postcard' that set me off, detesting as I do all the intellectual claptrap that this movement is encumbered with - inspired as it is by the French philosophers who claim to be against method and, whilst provoking a useful revolution in the world of science and the philosophy of science (giving us the notion of a paradigm shift), also retreat from a world of reliability into one in which any pronouncement, as long as it was made by a Lacan or someone of similar stature, is treated as if it were part of the Decalogue (whose provenance, no doubt, depending upon which so-called scholar you speak to, is either settled and sure, or else an eternal mystery that nobody should ever feel the right to speak authoritatively about), resulting, as we see today, in a reversion to tribal behaviour punctuated by muffled shrieks of "you said", "No, YOU said" - an overall degeneration from the higher standards of rigour and true intellect that we of the more classically minded, and one may even say without shame, empirical, traditions have cultivated, and with which I compare it with such contempt. (196 words)

cheer

the sunshine (almost, at times, the fool) warrior

Whose quarrels frequently led to poetry?

Is this by any chance related to another thread?
(Plath and) Hughes' quarrels frequently led to poetry?

Interesting quote from the Edinburgh Book Festival for poesy types:

"People in Britain can never love Sylvia Plath in the same way that (we) Americans can. You chose Ted Hughes and realised that you couldn't love Sylvia Plath at the same time." Andrea Dworkin as near as I can remember it, anyway

(Plath and) Hughes'...

Thanks for that idea Bridget (one of the things I love about this board, the additional stimulation to go LIU!). This wasn't actually what I had in mind; nor, come to that was shanks' wonderfully OTT spiel quite what I had thought of as a post-modernist postcard, which I was considering a simple email... I shall go and look up some more Hughes - others may like to try googling Yeats?

Whose quarrels frequently led to poetry?

Robin Hood's.


Having said which I can't think of any poems about Robin Hood.

Aw c'mon on, shona, surely you remember

"Robin Hood, Robin Hood, riding through the glen …"?

paulB - beat me to it!:

..... steals from the rich, gives to the poor ...

get real, guys! you know perfectly well that was 'dennis more, dennis more, riding through the glen...'

"Give me all your lupins!"

Qua(rrels of people who travel by) trains

Give me all your lupins

"In a bunch, in a bunch!"
We need our Everything about Monty Python reference thread again, don't we?

Thanks for that, folks. Classic poetry indeed courtesy of the Hooded Man.

...and of course we haven't even touched on Walt Disney or 'Robin of Sherwood'. Eek!

I thought that quarrels were only used in cross-bows, which are a mechanistic perversion of archery that Sir R.Hood would surely have eschewed?

(I may be wrong, of course - it really isn't my period, says he hiding behind the historian's usual escape clause )

I thought that quarrels were only used in cross-bows

Yes and no by the looks of it, Rhub, depending on your interpretation of especially (i.e. 'exclusively' or 'in particular')! -

Main Entry: quar·rel
Pronunciation: 'kwor(-&)l, 'kwär(-&)l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, square-headed arrow, building stone, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin quadrellum, diminutive of Latin quadrum square
Date: 13th century
: a square-headed bolt or arrow especially for a crossbow

I tried not to get into the quarrel-crossbow idea to begin with (primarily because I couldn't think of a clever enough line), but on this one I am pretty much on Rhuby's side.

1. I have never heard of a quarrel being used in a long bow (or any of the other simple, hand-drawn bows).

2. The especially may simply refer to the idea that certain types of siege engines also used quarrels/bolts. It need not be implying the use of them in longbows.

Now here's the thing: we have crossbows and longbows, but do we have a term for bows that are neither (old style double recurved bows, Japanese assymetrical bows, short bows etc)?

I have never heard of a quarrel being used in a long bow (or any of the other simple, hand-drawn bows)

Sad to say, I think you're both right. What's the point (argh) in a square-headed arrow unless it's required by the launcher, e.g. to retain it in a channel, or whatever?

So I won't quarrel over this one; just bow out graciously without a cross word.

> others may like to try googling Yeats?


"Poetry is made out of our quarrel with ourselves." - William Butler Yeats.

http://www.brentsjam.com/yeats.htm

Wow! I hadn't come across that before. Thanks, mav.

This article is quite - succinct:
http://www.blockhead.com/yeats.htm

P.S Mav - your subject "fight or flight" makes much sense.

Oh, AVY!

THANK YOU! I feel sure that is the answer to mav's
question that started this thread. (It's the one I'll take,
anyway, never mind the slings and arrows. And if anyone wants to quarrel with me on that score, I'll get cross.)

BUT--what I really want to thank you for is that second
link, the one from blockhead. That essay had me out of my
chair, going Yes! Yes! Yes!

BUT--what I really want to thank you for is that second link, the one from blockhead. That essay had me out of my chair, going Yes! Yes! Yes!


[rant]
I like poetry, and I am truly awed by a lot of what Yeats wrote but:

1. he was a complete nutter in many ways (his personal mythology probably only equalled for inspired lunacy by Blake), and

2. his Prayer for my daughter is one of the worst poems I have ever read - and by worst I mean it sounds like it was written by a Nazi. Even Kipling never had the gall to be so insulting to women.

It's funny, but we had to 'do' Prayer for my daughter in college - it was one of the first Yeats poems I ever read - and it put me off him for years. I thought anybody who could make such chauvinistic remarks about a woman's place, such sweeping generalisations about her beauty, and such patriarchal pronouncements about her marriage was a person with whom I could have no emotional sympathy whatsoever. Gradually, fighting this prejudice all the way, I discovered works like Lapis lazuli, and Sailing to Byzantium and, of course, The second coming. Even so, thanks to my initial animadversions, I have never fallen into the Yeats cult and am always prepared to take his poems on their merits only (and grudgingly at that) rather than the context of the Irish freedom-fighter/rebel/renaissance man.
[/rant]

Sorry for that, but I had to let off some steam about Yeats and that poem.

chauvinistic remarks about a woman's place

shanks, am I being peculiarly dense if I fail to see these in Prayer for my daughter?

Yes, it's idealistic (say, wanting there to be no hatred at all in her mind) but on the other hand that's just a manifestation of a parent's love. Yeats wants her to have the best in life, and sees that wishing her, for instance, a legendary beauty, would not help. You could say it would be more chauvinistic and shallow-minded for him just to wish her great beauty and intelligence, end of poem.

I kicked off with An Irish Airman foresees his Death (see http://www.bartleby.com/148/3.html) which I still think is stunning. No pretentious "I die for my country" stuff, just "a lonely impulse of delight".

I do agree with your opinions on the Yeats cult, though. It doesn't do anyone any favours to see them as more or less flawless, epic human beings. Especially so for poets. Yeats must have had loads of off days, and I think Prayer for my daughter is a bit overblown at the same time as it captures a certain (primarily parental) feeling quite well.

shanks, am I being peculiarly dense if I fail to see these in Prayer for my daughter?

Yes, it's idealistic (say, wanting there to be no hatred at all in her mind) but on the other hand that's just a manifestation of a parent's love. Yeats wants her to have the best in life, and sees that wishing her, for instance, a legendary beauty, would not help. You could say it would be more chauvinistic and shallow-minded for him just to wish her great beauty and intelligence, end of poem.

OK. Let's start with the chauvinsim thing. Would he have wished these on his son? Not to be good-looking, because invaribaly (well really?) good looking people turn out to be dimbulbs?

Would he want him not to have opinions - because invariably (well really?) opinions lead to hatred?

Would he want him to be taken in by a gentle, decorous family?

I'm sorry, but it's a ghastly set of sentiments, and not one I'd wish on anybody's daughter, let alone my own. If she's going to be beautiful (which I wouldn't bother about - whether wishing for or against) so be it. More importantly for me - I'd wish for her to be intelligent. Independent. Indomitable. And intellectual. Also, I hope, to be loving and generous. If she doesn't find a welcoming decorous home, so much the better - let it be a Bohemian lifestyle - so long as she's happy. Let her be the most opinionated termagent since the delightful Katharine - as long as she's happy and finds love nevertheless. To wish for her not to be beautiful, to be docile, to be dependent upon some gracious family - these are amongst the worst curses I could imagine.

This is my opinion, of course - feel free to disagree - but the poem, whilst containing some beautiful passages, is not a piece whose sentiments I could agree with. (Damn, there was no infinitive to split in that last line - so you'll have to make do with the preposition at the end .)

cheer

the sunshine warrior

feel free to disagree
I do, shanks.
Overall you have to bear in mind that the poem was written in 1919. Society was different then. Though I won't hide behind that fact overmuch.

Would he have wished these on his son? Not to be good-looking, because invaribaly (well really?) good looking people turn out to be dimbulbs?
He's wishing her not to be too good-looking, ("not/Beauty to make a stranger's eye distraught"), because that can mean attention for the wrong reasons, and that the good-looking person has less need to cultivate himself/herself. Such people may even lose "The heart-revealing intimacy/That chooses right" by associating themselves overmuch with their appearance. Are you sure this kind of thing doesn't still happen? I'm sure many film stars would say it does.

Would he want him not to have opinions - because invariably (well really?) opinions lead to hatred?
Well, Yeats is talking about opinions in the sense of "being opinionated" here, I think. Opinionated people (of whatever gender) can be entertaining in the short term, but become wearisome in the long term. Definitely a barrier to social success, even if you spend a lot of time in the company of intellectuals.
Oh, and don't take social success as meaning solely taking the official tried and trusted line. Anarchists socialise too!

I've already said that Yeats' wish for his daughter not to have any hatred is idealistic. But on the other hand, it's common parental practice to wish children a life free of pain, fear and loss, however impossible that may be.

Would he want him to be taken in by a gentle, decorous family?
Yeats emphasizes the importance of "custom" and "ceremony", which you could say are lacking in many families these days. Old family structures have broken down, and the new structures are only just starting to take shape. For sure, we'll be OK eventually, but there are a lot of rudderless ships out there at the moment. If you've spent a little time in a rudderless ship, you'll realise that it's not a good thing, and not something you'd wish on any of your children.

To some extent I'm just playing Devil's Advocate, as I don't think the poem is that wonderful. However, I think your reaction against it is more extreme than is justified by the poem itself.

I am, of course, talking as a parent myself, which may be just a little significant.

Know what, Shona? I should drop this. But I am so tempted to go just one more round...

Arrrghhh. (The voices in my head: "Come over to the dark side, Luke. You know you want to...")

But I am strong.

You can have the last word...

Phew [wiping_sweat_off_brow_emoticon]...

"Come over to the dark side, Luke. You know you want to..."

I'll bet Darth didn't read namby-pamby Yeats over Luke's cot.

When were we having that beer again?

When were we having that beer again?

January, my man. Hey Jo, wanna join us? Mav? Rhuby? Join the darling buds in Kent?

As for Darth - I think "The Second Coming" would be entirely appropriate for Luke's cradle, don't you?

cheer

the sunshine warrior

>Hey Jo, wanna join us?

I'm not one to turn down an invitation. Just get the railway companies to make the trains run and I'll be there!

Just get the railway companies to make the trains run and I'll be there!

Hey. I'm willing to deal with difficulties - but not with ruddy impossibilities!

Delighted to come back aboard after having left enough time for quarrels and timetables to have spent their measure

But what about the rest of the quotation, which invests it with even more interest, especially for the more prolix of us?

I think I'm all mixed up. Or else, like Pope, I have my headquarters where my hindquarters should be.