Following on from a comment made in "Wonk" and without getting too bogged down in all the pc stuff - how did American Indians (cf Asian Indians) get called Indians in the first place?
Is it a word which just meant "native"? Or did people think that the indigenous people of America came from India?
As I recall the story, old Cristoforo Colombo refused to believe he had only travelled halfway around the world. He must, he thought, be in the Indies. Hence, the native population must be Indian. QED. Like the QWERTY keyboard, it's a frozen accident of history that is well-nigh un-undoable.
shanks,
I think I know the answer to this, but what is your opinion on the use of the word "Asian" to describe "Indian" people?
Actually this is probably exclusively UK.
Could somebody from outside the UK enlighten me on this one?
Asian to describe Indian can be very uncomfortable. Two reasons:
1. Asia is a lot bigger than India. Asia is a lot bigger than South Asia (notionally understood to cover the Indian sub-continent). Hence it excludes other Asians by definition, which is unfair.
2. The word is always used to refer to South Asians, not Indians specifically, which then gets you caught up in the tangled web of Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, Nepalis and others, say, suggesting that they are not Indians, and not like Indians.
To be honest, though, there is a great deal that is common in the cultures of the people from the various South Asian countries, and a common word to recognise this is not necessarily (or by definition) insulting - any more than European would be, when used in the right context.
Much more irritating to me is when someone asks: "Do you speak Indian then?" (Or a favourite of some of my expat friends: "So are you Hindi?") I also have a personal quirk - my hackles rise when someone talks to me about "your people" (mean they ever so well by it).
Let's see what the non-UK responses are like...
cheer
the sunshine warrior
Speaking only about my part of the country, I can say that we really seldom even use the term "Asian", when referring to a specific person or group. It may well be different on our West Coast, which has the greatest influx.
As I hinted at in my other post, we here in the U.S. kind of need to take special care when using the word "Indian",
because of the long-term usage as applied to the ones who
greeted Christoher C. and Raleigh. People I know usually say "a person from India", or similar. If I heard someone described as Asian, it would not occur to me to think they were from India.
Overall, I'd say we tend to use the country of origin:
Chinese, Korean, Japanese. Interestingly, here the area containing Vietnam, Thailand, etc., is popularly known as
Southeast Asia.
Let's see what the non-UK responses are like...
So, what's your pick, shanks? Having had contact with people from many different parts of South Asia(Gujarati, Bangladeshi, Burgher, Punjabi, Telugu) since childhood, I have happily never been guilty of the gaffes you mention. The hardest thing I find is trying to explain where my Dad is from. Although he was born in Meerut, but his family home was only ever Quetta or Karachi, while he attended boarding school in Ghora Ghali. So I find myself saying something really long-winded like "he was born in India, and grew up in what is now Pakistan." Any suggestion on a suitably catholic term for those from the subcontinent, from one of "your people" (is it wrong that I cringed and smirked simultaneously when I read that phrase?) would be much appreciated.
For my father the irony of this identity dilemma is that he was stateless for forty years - Britain would not recognise him as a citizen nor would India, so that when he became a naturalised NZer, he had lived here longer than had the NZ-born immigration officials working on his case.
As an aside, Enigma suggested that my Dad was not "stateless" for forty years, but "stately"! It also occurred to me that its inevitable suggested replacement for NZer, O'Brien, may have deeper meaning. Terence O'Brien served as NZ's ambassador to the UN for years, including the duration of NZ's stint on the Security Council. That quirky coincidence seems apt for our beloved spell-checker.
In parts of NY, Flushing, Asian is used to define a mixture of Chinese, Japanese, Korean and others-- there is an area called "new china town", but Koreans currently dominate. It's not a tourist site, rather just a popular neighborhood that has attracted immigrants from several areas. There are a several Thai, and even Malaysia restaurants, and most of the Filipino's I know live in the general area, and I am sure that there are other ethnic/national groups are there--take out restaurants are usually the first indication of a group presence..
Occasionally, natives (i.e., North Europeans who have lived in the area for more than 25 years) complain that there are too many signs that aren't in English. But the influx of so many immigrants has revitalized the area, and mostly what they are upset about is the lack of free parking!
It can be pretty difficult-- I live at the east edge of Flushing, and our local elementary school did a survey, in a school of 320 students, 30 different languages spoken at home! But my area is slightly more mixed, Hindi, Urdu and Farsi are included in the list of languages.
Most new comer sort themselves out quickly and decide for themselves how to hyphenate their ethic group.
My daughter in law, has a Philippine mother, an Aussie father, grew up in Singapore, but considers herself a San Franciscan (CA)!
shanks,
I think most Australians primarily think of South-East Asia when they hear the word Asia, probably extending as far north as Japan on the east side. Heading west is a different story. I imagine that most people here would NOT regard Indians (or Pakistanis or Nepalis or ...) as Asians. I think it relates mainly to physical characteristics of a country's inhabitants, rather than to geography. If you asked the same people what continent India is in, they wouldn't hesitate long before replying "Asia". Certainly a dilemma.
Interestingly enough, our previous prime minister, looking to strengthen economic ties with our Asian neighbours, tried to convince us that Australia was part of Asia. Unfortunately for him, the rest of Asia saw us as a large country sparsely populated primarily with European immigrants, with a healthy mix of people from ethnic groups from just about everywhere. They didn't buy his argument. Nor did the Australian people.
As Shanks says a term commonly used in the UK is Asian meaning "from the Indian subcontinent".
I suspect that this is because our largest non-white ethnic grouping (less than 4% of the whole UK is non-white, maybe slightly higher now) is from the Indian subcontinent and most people from Pakistan would prefer it not to be assumed that they are from India, so we don't try to guess and stick with Asian as a "safe" bet. South Asian is sometimes used by intitutions but isn't an every day term used in the street.
Apart from London, which seems to include people from every nation on earth, we don't have the same level of large scale immigration from South East Asia as the USA or Australia.
There are Chinese people in small numbers all over the country and a few large clusters in some big cities. I think we tend to use the name of the country for people from China, Korea, Japan or anywhere else in Asia (North or South)
"African and Carribean" used to be the other term but I'm not up to date on how people now choose to describe themselves.
The term we don't seem to use very often is "Caucasian" - it always stands out in American cop shows.
Here's the data from the CIA Worldfactbook 2000:
Ethnic groups: English 81.5%, Scottish 9.6%, Irish 2.4%, Welsh 1.9%, Ulster 1.8%, West Indian, Indian, Pakistani, and other 2.8%
SHANKS
I don't understand what you are angry about when you are asked about your people? I am very proud of being Canadian from Québec. When somebody asks about my people it doesn't upset me. Québecers often refer to themself as part of the peuple Québecois (Québec peoples). I am sure, by the tone of your post, that I must be missing something.
To continue with post...In Montreal, people from India are never refered to as Asians but Indians. Like 'of troy' the term Asian is often used to encompass people from Vietnam, China, Korea, Malasia. But when referring to one specific peoples the country of origin is used. We also tend to be very specific when referring to food/restaurants (Iranian, Spanish, French, Sechzuan, Malasian, Vietnamese, Jamaican, Haitian, etc). NOTE TO ALL WOULD BE TRAVELLERS...if you want to eat well, Montreal is THE place to visit. We have such a wide variety of restaurants of excellant quality. It is worth the trip just for that.
I learned, in an early mailing from Mr Subcontinent himself, Anu Garg, that the above is the only word in English with the vowels arranged in
lacitebahpla order.
...only word in English with the vowels arranged in lacitebahpla order
Thanks, Anna, you learn something every day. I'd love to know how "they" come up with these sort of facts. I guess they throw it into some sort of letter-crunching dictionarial computer? Another recent example from Anu that springs to mind is that "syzygy" is the longest English word from which no other word can be formed using its letters (hope I got that right). I just have to take their word for it, no pun intended.
Bel, you said
I don't understand what you are angry about when you are asked about your people?
Partly it is because, perhaps, I eschew the idea of having 'my people'. Partly because of.... well, here's an imaginary conversation, that nevertheless is pretty true. (I have made up C88's parenthetical thoughts.)
Hypothetical conversation upon first meeting.
Combat88: "Are you Indian?" [You're Indian, aren't you!]
Me: "No. Actually I'm English." [What are your criteria anyway?]
C88: "But, like… you've got… um … family … in India? I mean, your family comes from India…?" [wog]
Me: "My parents live in Bombay, yes." [And I could have been white and this fact would not have made the least blind bit of difference to you then.]
C88: "Ahhh…" [Knew you were Indian!] "So tell me - do your people celebrate Christmas (play hide the sausage/burn their dead/kill for dowry)?" [Bloody uncivilised wogs. Bet he shares his room with thirteen other people, most of them illegal immigrants.]
Me: "I celebrate Christmas with gusto." [Racist!]
Notes:
1. Combat88 - As I understand it, a fascist group aligned to Nazism (the number 88 is of some Hitlerian significance - his birthday or some such).
2. wog - Westernised oriental gentleman - much used pejoratively during the time of the Raj. Also 'babu' used similarly vide Kipling's Kim.
The point is that the minute I am categorised as part of 'your people', I feel as if I have been de-personalised, as if I am no longer important to the person talking to me, merely the stereotypes I represent for him or her. This certainly angers me. How much of it is merely 'in my mind' I don't know, but I am not a paranoid sort of person, and cannot really remember coming across any overt racism aimed at me... so maybe it's an open question.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
the minute I am categorised as part of 'your people', I feel as if I have been de-personalised, as if I am no longer important to the person talking to me, merely the stereotypes I represent for him or her.
Oh, my dearest--
I am humbled before this essential and invaluable lesson.
Thank you.
I think that while we all may be happy to choose to belong to certain groups we dislike having groups thrust upon us (with all the inherent assumptions).
It's interesting that some people (you know who you are - RhubarbCommando!) would prefer not to tell us their gender and we've discussed in the "poster sex" thread the kind of assumptions people make, based on really very small amounts of information about us. Even without looking at extreme racisc groups we have all made assumptions about others based on a first impression.
Whilst I am reasonably happy for people to know I am female. There are some circumstances where I would prefer not to discuss the religion in which I was brought up. I feel that incorrect assumptions could be made about my politics and whilst I'd be happy to discuss those with friends I'd rather not discuss it with the world in general. The problem with an assumption based on colour of skin is that is way too broad and is so easy to do. I can understand Shank's reluctance to be placed into a group by others.
Jackie
It ain't as bad as all that. I learn to bite my tongue. Besides, I have seen the other side - paranoia taken to the extent of never trusting the 'whites' (yes, I've heard expats use that phrase often enough in the vernacular - gora in Hindi), leading to a complete lack of understanding, friendship, or co-operation. I'd rather be quiet about a little unconscious racism, than perpetuate the vicious spiral by mirroring it.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
Agreed, Jo.
It isn't paranoia, or an unjustifiable desire for privacy - just caution, and a desire to be taken for who you are. Having said which, I am certain that I am as guilty as anybody of stereotyping people...
Fancy meeting up sometime for a curry?
[Afterthought: This is relates to stereotyping, rather than needing to be transferred to the "personals" discussion]
Any time you're in London. Vindaloo, vindaloo. Vindaloo, vindaloo, la la. After all, apparently the English are now physically addicted to the stuff. For me, it's the lager and poppadums that do it...
Oh Shanks, you are so right--It is such a lazy habit, for people to think that they can "know" your by fitting you into a neat little category.
It is one of my failings--I keep thinking I have gotten over its, and they some one will say something, and I realize that I have a stereotyped someone by their age, ethic background, religion, haircolor, or some other meaningless attribute. Not always negatively, but stereotyped them none the less.
A english gentleman once put a very large foot in his mouth when he asked about my background (he was surprised at my knowledge of "english" English, and when I replied I was Irish American, the words "But your intelligent!" fell out of his mouth. It is very unpleasant to find yourself stereotyped! I am always vaguely aware that the irish are not always held in high regard, not even here in US, but it rare to come face to face with it.
At least he admitted that you're intelligent (whilst simultaneously demonstrating an infamous English prejudice)!
For what it's worth, the English these days seem happiest picking on the Welsh. Dunno why, but sheep jokes abound. Most of the time, it makes me cringe (possibly because most of the sheep jokes aren't even funny, just vicious).
Ah well, we may have a great sense of irony, but we are as unregenerate as anybody else, it would seem, when it comes to stereotyping...
cheer
the sunshine warrior
the number 88 is of some Hitlerian significanceI believe it's nothing too sophisticated - "H" is the 8th letter in the alphabet.
Heil Hitler >> HH >> 88
There is or was another (like-minded) group where the number 18 was involved, for the same reason.
For all you folks outside the UK: don't get the wrong impression, here. Unless I've been living in a box (
hmmm, we-ell..) the activities of cosy neo-Nazi groups like those mentioned above are rarely noticeable.
People who share various degrees of belief in common with the groups are sadly more prevalent, although a lot of this is more about ignorance than actual malice.
I hope that my assessment of the situation isn't too hugely out of step with shanks' actual experience. Speaking for myself, I have a number of Indian friends, most of whom are IMHO better Englishmen than many people of genuine Anglo-Saxon extraction.
Suppose I should mention here that I'm not of Anglo-Saxon extraction myself. By birth and nurture I'm as English as they come, but by blood I'm 100% "other"! Maybe not too
significant an other though, visually speaking.
Shona
The Combat88 reference was simply in order to put a name there that couldn't offend anybody I know. I think your analysis is spot on - the neoNazi groups are hardly seen. Aspects of their attitudes, however, are everywhere.
BTW, that was probably the second most cryptic declaration of 'origins' I have ever heard.
probably the second most cryptic declaration of 'origins' I have ever heard
Wow. Thank you, I think!
Actually I wasn't trying to be that mysterious, just wanted to leave the possibility of another guessing game.
Put more directly, I'm white/Caucasian (still not comfortable with the latter - seems to imply descendence from the erstwhile USSR), both my parents are from another country but are "naturalised" British.
It may or may not be a big clue that my grandparents & parents came to England just after the War. Along with quite a lot of other fellow countrymen.
It's no big deal - ask and I'll tell!
Oh yes - what was the first most cryptic origin?
> I have a number of Indian friends, most of whom are IMHO better Englishmen than many people of genuine Anglo-Saxon extraction
Why does EVERYTHING remind me of a story? Anyway, I am reminded of three fellows I know, a Catholic priest, a Baptist minister, and a rabbi (hmmm, odd that you don't have to specify the religion of the latter.) They would meet every Wednesday for golf. One day they got to talking about the various problems they were seeing with their flocks. The priest mentioned that his biggest problem was that more and more Catholics were becoming Quakers. The minister thought for a minute and said, "You may be onto something. Now that you mention it, I suppose there's a trend in that direction in my flock." The rabbi scoffed at both of them. "You think you have problems, some of my best Jews are Friends."
Oh yes - what was the first most cryptic origin?
Wouldn't that be telling? It was simply a chap in junior college who, strangely for an Indian, claimed to have made up his surname. Thus it was impossible to use the normal cues top discover which part of India he came from. I never did find out, but if his theories (following Ayn Rand) are true, then he is today running the world, unbeknownst to us, and if on schedule, he should have achieved this Wizard of Oz-ian stature by about 1986.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
>It was simply a chap in junior college who, strangely for an Indian,
claimed to have made up his surname.
There was someone in our engineering class who went by the name of T. S. Engineer -- I have to admit to not knowing what part of the subcontinent he came from.
T. S. EngineerSo did everybody in your class have the same initials, T.S.Uwm ?
That's surreal (this stinks) - terribly surprising; too strange! True synchronicity?
Tot Siens,
Fisk
(with apologies to Dr Seuss
for being nothing like him whatsoever)
"Taxi, Sir?" 
tsouche!
2. wog - Westernised oriental gentleman - much used pejoratively during the time of the Raj. Also 'babu' used similarly vide Kipling's Kim.
I think that John Cleese lampooned the "wog" thing very well with the scene from Fawlty Towers where the major is talking about watching India at Lords. As to "Babu", I did not know its derogatory nature. I had a Telugu friend who called himself Babu. He did tell me his full name, but said that Babu was a pretty common nickname in his part of the country, and it was the name he used most often.
tsouche!
Whoa!
You're not making tsushi out of me, mate.
Very late into this conversaiton....
Shanks, it seems like such a sad thing to have these thoughts going through your head whenever you meet people (nazi jerks aside where you are absolutely right that they are thinking bad things about you). I can see where you would get rankled when peoples say "your people". Here it is so commonly used as a pride thing "Canadians are my people" that I did not see it any other way.
I'm very troubled by your example though. I am very friendly by nature, I love meeting new people and feel that new and old friends are a blessing. When I meet someone new who is evidently not from Montreal I eventually get around to asking from whence they came. Not to belittle, or categorize negatively, but to get to know the whole person. I can’t imagine anyone being embarrassed about their country of origin (I’m not saying that you are here) so I have never hesitated to ask. I’ve never seen anyone be offended, perhaps it’s all in the way a person asks.
I don’t know what to say. It just seems so sad.
>There was someone in our engineering class who went by the name of T. S.
>Engineer -- I have to admit to not knowing what part of the subcontinent he came
>from.
I am sure he was Parsi. Parsi's have surnames like Engineer, Master, Doctor also Treasury-wallah, Tobacco-wallah, Brandywallah, Whiskywallah, Matchbox-wallah.
.
< some of my best Jews are Friends>
Thanks, Ted, I've passed your wonderful story on to several of my Quaker Friends.
belM, I think you and I are just alike, in re: wanting to get to know people! Sometimes, you can just tell that someone is going to be "your kind of person", and in those cases, I just want to say, "Quick, tell me the essentials so we can get the real conversation going"!
Apparently shanks has not seen your post yet. I hope I'm not giving the wrong interpretation here, but I didn't have the impression he was embarrassed about where he's from.
Though I do know that some people are, right here in the USA; from here, that is, not immigrants.
I guess that, when one has been burned, esp. repeatedly,
that one learns to be wary of being burned again. The
theoretical conversation he posted sounds to me like typical human ignorance. Very different from deliberate
taunting/threatening, but still wearisome to have to deal with again and again, and again... Kind of like a very tall student whom people automatically assume must be on the basketball team, or maybe, that all Kentuckians are
barefoot hillbillies. (No danger of that happening to me, folks. But I've been given expressions of surprise that I and my fellow Kentuckians weren't.) Oh, dear, this is starting to sound very reminiscent of a post I made
long ago, but I'll say it again--I think the only thing we can do to combat ignorance is to do it one step (person) at a time. It's too overwhelming to think of changing the whole world.
I think you are right when you said a lot depends on how
inquiries are put. If it is obviously from friendly interest, surely not too many people would take offense.
Judging by his post in response to mine, I have to say that
I believe our sweet shanks can roll with the punches and come up smiling. Right, Sweetie?
belM
These 'thoughts' going around in my head are pretty much exceptional - if you take the idea of the 'stream of consciousness', then these are just possible backgrounds. Of course I appreciate that most people are merely curious, and not in a judgemental way - it's human, and quite nice, to be interested in others.
Forget the nazi jerks - I think Jackie comes close to the truth - it can be depressing to see the inevitable categorisation (whether or not negative) to which you are subject once people have tried (and succeeded) in filing you in your particular pigeon-hole in their heads. Tall does not equal basketballplayer. Canadian does not equal "Eh" sayer! Indian does not equal woman suppressor. Yet, in all these cases, the stereotypes are 'sound' ones because they may represent the majority experience, or the most visible traits, of the groups concerned. I just find it irritating to be 'grouped'...
Most times, in any case, the stereotype tends to dissolve - I haven't ever met anybody who completely conforms to a stereotype.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
Oh, dear! I've come very late into a Fascinating Fred (FF?)
Two things have struck me. First, I know exactly what shanks means about "your people," it is not so much the words as the tone they are said in (sometimes the tone is kept hidden, but it is still there) and the tone is that one of Absolutely English Total Bloody Patronage - an assumption that, whatever "your people" are, we, the English, are better than you. Brittania rules the waves and every other damned thing as well.
It is also used by the "upper" classes toward a class that is "lower." shanks is quite right to be offended by it - even if only mildly so, possibly with feelings of, "Oh, well! - they know no better." I have heard the tone on other's voices when speaking to "foreigners" - especially to black foreigners whose grandparents were born in England - and have cringed inwardly.
The second point is "wogs": I have always understood (by hearsay, not by research) that Egyptian labourers on the Suez Canal during the First World War (I think) either had passes or else had their clothing marked with the intials W.O.G.S. - Workers On Government Service. Most certainly, when I was but a child, the term "wogs" was always applied to Arabs, and it was only later that I heard it applied to people from India or Pakistan. Later still, I heard it applied to Carribeans as well.
When I worked in New York for a few months many years ago, when fishonabike was still on stabilisers. I was hugely amused by answers to the question "Where are you from?"
In all innocence I asked the question, expecting replies like Brooklyn, Queens or even further flung places like Chicago or Texas. Instead people who seemed to me to be young North Americans gave replies like Ireland, Finland and Scotland. I was impressed that they seemed so at home in New York so I asked questions like "Is it very dark in the winter in Finland?" or "Are there a lot of flights to Ireland?"
I was astonished by the reply "I don't know, I've never been to Finland/Ireland". They then explained that their grandparents or even great grandparents came from the country".
I don't know if this is just a big city phenomenon or whether it was unusual. It just makes me wonder if asking where people are from in the UK (especially if we are guessing because their skin colour or accent is different to that most prevalent in the locality) is a much bigger deal than in the USA where many people can go back only a couple of generations to a time when members of their family were not born in the USA.
Jo,
The same thing still happened as recently as two years ago in Chicago. People who had never been out of the US told me in all seriousness that they were Irish. I found it very confusing.
As for asking where people are from, I'm not sure that I found it an especially big deal when I was still living in the UK. I think it's to do with how you ask. Forget what colour someone is - if they talk the local language fluently with the local accent, assume they're local. If they talk the local language fluently with a non-local accent, ask a neutral question. 'Have you lived round here all your life? / How long have you lived round here?' They can answer with the name of another city or another country as they choose - and as is appropriate. This stops it being a nationality or ethnicity question and makes it a question about the person.
It also stops it being a question about their family's origins in Ireland when you're standing in the middle of Chicago!
Bridget - I agree. I phrase my questions a little more carefully these days. The problem is that I love to collect accents, so I'm always interested to know where they come from!
In reply to:
I never did find out, but if his theories (following Ayn Rand) are true, then he is today running the world, unbeknownst to us, and if on schedule, he should have achieved this Wizard of Oz-ian stature by about 1986.
Now known as Anu Garg, perhaps? If he isn't running the world, he's at least running one of the best parts of it.
Bingley
Re Wogs
I've joined this FF quite late too.
It struck me as bizarre when I first came to Australia that (white, "north European") Australians refer to Greeks and Italians as wogs. coming from the UK, I had always heard the term applied to West Indians or other black people. Even more intriguing is the use of the term by Australians of Greek or Italian descent applying it to themselves. There's even been a very successful film called The Wogboy which is a self lampooning comedy starring a Greek-Australian actor.
I think it must partly be a self protective measure, rather like gay men deliberately labelling themselves as "queer" - ie. if I refer to myself by the the most offensive racist or prejudiced epithet, I won't be hurt by the worst that can be hurled at me by bigoted morons using the terms abusively.
Jo
I love accents too, but I am ever so concscious about asking about them. Then I went and asked my fellow temp in the office where she was from: "Australia". So it's back to the drawing board for me if I cannot even tell an Australian accent...
I loved an episode recorded in
Pardon My Blooper (a collection of
old radio out-takes) where, upon being asked the question:
"Are you a natural-born citizen of the United States?"
a lady replies:
"No, I was born Caesarian"
>natural-born citizen
Now if Macbeth had had that level of attention to detail ...
>natural-born citizen
Now if Macbeth had had that level of attention to detail ...
Indeed! I remember the first time I read "The Scottish Play" (Blackadder reference) being greatly aggrieved at such a lame device being used in such a critical role - great language, plot device stinks worse than a fish after a long ride! (present company excluded, natch)
>I love to collect accents, so I'm always interested to know where they come from!<
My partner Dina, who is also very interested (not to say curious) in people, when she meets a french-speaking person, never asks "where are you from?", but rather "Are you from Paris?" - She never fails to get a detailed answer!
great language, plot device stinks
Whether it is wossname's being "untimely ripp'd", or the woods moving against the castle, the plot devices are pretty peurile. But then, Shakespeare was never very good at that sort of thing, was he? Think about the notion that a sister could be disguised as a man and look exactly like her brother (Twelfth Night), or a handmaiden could compromise her mistress at night without her mistress realising it (Much ado...), or that two young lovers kill themselves because they are too stupid to check properly for signs of life (Romeo and Juliet). Shakespearian plays were, I think, made for the willing suspension of disbelief...
cheer
the sunshine warrior
"Are you from Paris?"
Round here, the native Lancastrians say to me, "Tha's not from rahnd 'ere, is tha?" - however , they would say that to someone from Garstang (the next small town - but with a distinctive accent) just as they would say it to someone like me, with a "Southern" accent.
Shakespearian plays were, I think, made for the willing suspension of disbeliefshanks, you're absolutely right. It's something I must have registered at some level before, but it never became conscious. So I really have learned something today!
On that note, methinks 'tis time for bed (said Zebedee).
stinks worse than a fish after a long rideMax, you've done it again
I'm
definitely going to re-use this one!
methinks 'tis time for bed (said Zebedee).
Oooohh. Don't remind me - what nostalgic pangs I suffer for the Magic Roundabout - the children's TV show for the stoned generation..
cheer
the sunshine (just call me Dylan) warrior
just call me Dylan..and Bob's your uncle
::twweeet:: what's all this then? (WATT?)
-the board police
the board police
It's a fair cop - Society's to blame.
I can do it... I can do it...
Darling hearts, and molluscs everywhere, a word of explanation:
http://www.members.tripod.com/crystaltipps/roundabout/mrindex.html Bingley
I'm sorry, Bingley, but I found the link you provided more confusing than helpful - and I am a Magic Roundabout fan from way back. For our transatlantic friends, and any others for whom the phrase, "Magic Roundabout" doesn't immediately set your minds thinking of a dog with a deadpan voices and a rabbit with laid-back attitude, to say nothing of a cockney snail and a clover chewing cow, a word of explanation.
"Magic Roundabout" was a cartoon feature for chidren which, like all of the best of children's entertainment - especially pantomime - ran on two levels: one for the children, which they enjoyed for what it was; and one for the adults, with a host of hidden meanings and satirical comment on the grown-up world.
But I do have to say that I preferred Jasper Carrot's version - which ended up with, "It's time for bed." said Zededee: "Oh, Goody!" said Florence.
The genius behind it was Emma Thompson's father. Or is she too, too far back to be meaningful?
In reply to:
The genius behind it was Emma Thompson's father.
I'm not sure quite why I should be, but I'm stunned.
Bingley
>I'm not sure quite why I should be, but I'm stunned.
I always knew that there just had to be a link between Zebedee and Jane Austin. (or even Jane Austen)
Zebedee and Jane Austin.
Would this be J Austin Powers then? (I know, I know - no fair taking the mick out of typos, but on this occasion I couldn't resist...)
cheer
the sunshine warrior
Yes, I'm sure it was a typo (I and E are so close together on the QWERTY keyboard that my fingers must have slipped).
Actually I was thinking about my friend in the States who was apalled when her brother named his child Austin Cooper -she said "You named your son after a car!" - she's been collecting model "minis" for him every itme she comes to the UK.