All Hallow's Eve - 10/25/02 07:10 PM
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/26/02 10:43 PM
>This is an alien tradition in England, but one which seems to have become popular in the past decade partly as a result of the film ET, which featured it.
I think we discussed this last year, or the one before. I'm always suprised when people from the UK say that it is not traditional to celebrate Halloween. I have done so for as long as I can remember (and that was a good twenty years before ET) although I do accept that it was more of a local tradition (in my part of Lancashire) and that friends from the South didn't seem to share the enthusiasm. In Scotland it is called guizing - see here for a mention of guizing taking place in the 19th Century http://www.fetlar.com/daily_life_in_fetlar.htm
I think we discussed this last year, or the one before. I'm always suprised when people from the UK say that it is not traditional to celebrate Halloween. I have done so for as long as I can remember (and that was a good twenty years before ET) although I do accept that it was more of a local tradition (in my part of Lancashire) and that friends from the South didn't seem to share the enthusiasm. In Scotland it is called guizing - see here for a mention of guizing taking place in the 19th Century http://www.fetlar.com/daily_life_in_fetlar.htm
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/27/02 12:24 AM
I've heard of guizing, Jo; and, what a neat site! At last I've seen a picture of a cobbler's last. I take it Fetlar is an island?
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/27/02 10:18 AM
I didn't read the site as saying that celebrating Halloween was an alien tradition over here - just the "trick & treat" thing. And I concur with that. Fifty-sixty years ago, when I woz a nipper, we certainly didn't do such things as knocking on doors demanding gifts. We went out to parties - often wearing fancy-dress of some appropriate kind - and played games, including really traditional halloween games such as "bobbing for apples" and peeling and apple so that the peel is removed in one strip, throwing it over your left shoulder, and seeing what initial it forms. The initial will be that of your loved-one-to be.
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/27/02 12:44 PM
Ha! Come back to good old Wellybro, Rhube. There's been full-scale nightly hostilities involving 105mm artillery barrages and mine-laying operations on the Hemmingwell Estate behind us - with the police occasionally weighing in with artillery spotting helicopters. Add to that the gangs of Hell's Tweenies and the Subteens from Sodom (from the same area) extorting treats at every door in the street since the middle of this month. And it'll go on until the middle of next month, too ...
All jolly damned fine, not.
All jolly damned fine, not.
Trick or Treat - 10/27/02 03:11 PM
an alien tradition over here - just the "trick & treat" thing
Yes, I agree with that. When I wor a lad, we certainly used to get dressed up (as something scary) and go off and try to scare people. We also used to go for the odd trick such as knocking on doors and running away. But we'd never be "bought off".
An American-style Halloween, including trick-or-treat, Happy Halloween cards
, etc only appeared here about 10-15 years ago - which would tie in fairly well with E.T., though I'd never considered that before.
Here's an article from a local magazine, which suggests that trick-or-treating actually originated in Europe (not Ireland), related to early Christianity rather than paganism:
The custom of trick-or-treating is thought to have originated not with the Irish Celts [Samhain etc], but with a ninth-century European custom called 'souling'.
On November 2, All Souls Day, early Christians walked from village to village begging for 'soul cakes' - square pieces of bread with currants [or caraway-seed cakes, I've read elsewhere]. The more soul-cakes the beggars received, the more prayers they would promise to say on behalf of the dead relatives pf the donors.
At the time, it was believed that the dead remained in limbo for a time after death, and that prayer, even by strangers, could help a soul's passage to heaven.
You can see how failing to pray for dead relatives would be considered likely to bring bad luck, especially at a time when the boundaries between worlds were meant to be thin.
Yes, I agree with that. When I wor a lad, we certainly used to get dressed up (as something scary) and go off and try to scare people. We also used to go for the odd trick such as knocking on doors and running away. But we'd never be "bought off".
An American-style Halloween, including trick-or-treat, Happy Halloween cards
, etc only appeared here about 10-15 years ago - which would tie in fairly well with E.T., though I'd never considered that before.Here's an article from a local magazine, which suggests that trick-or-treating actually originated in Europe (not Ireland), related to early Christianity rather than paganism:
The custom of trick-or-treating is thought to have originated not with the Irish Celts [Samhain etc], but with a ninth-century European custom called 'souling'.
On November 2, All Souls Day, early Christians walked from village to village begging for 'soul cakes' - square pieces of bread with currants [or caraway-seed cakes, I've read elsewhere]. The more soul-cakes the beggars received, the more prayers they would promise to say on behalf of the dead relatives pf the donors.
At the time, it was believed that the dead remained in limbo for a time after death, and that prayer, even by strangers, could help a soul's passage to heaven.
You can see how failing to pray for dead relatives would be considered likely to bring bad luck, especially at a time when the boundaries between worlds were meant to be thin.
Remember Remember again - 10/27/02 03:46 PM
Great article, Rhuby - ties in with loads of stuff.
I've read elsewhere that Samhain (apparently pronounced "sow-een") was considered the beginning of a new (pagan) year as well as the end of the old year, which figures.
From a time well before the Gunpowder Plot, the beginning of November was marked by bonfires, torchlit processions and burned sacrifices (to drive away evil spirits). The sacrifices, like the bonfire itself, represented all that was undesirable of the old year, consigning it to ashes and history, never to be repeated.
Apparently the old year's "evil spirits" were represented by dummies (effigies) that were called "guys". Does seem a major coincidence if so..
Anyway, I'm going to throw in my regular mention of the Lewes Bonfire, for which people dress up in fantastic outfits (well, some of 'em do), walk through the old town in torchlit processions, and watch some of the best fireworks in the world. Oh, including effigies of Guy Fawkes, and "tableaux" effigies of hateful people or events from the previous year:
http://www.cliffebonfire.co.uk/TabGallery.htm
Shame they haven't got last year's (unusually predictable) Bin Laden here yet.
Ah, from another site:
http://www.janeandrichard.co.uk/photos/bonfire_2001/
These effigies and tableaux aren't burnt, incidentally - they are all-in-one firework displays that don't blow up completely until right at the end.
Usually.
I could write lots more about this, but reckon I'll leave it there.
I've read elsewhere that Samhain (apparently pronounced "sow-een") was considered the beginning of a new (pagan) year as well as the end of the old year, which figures.
From a time well before the Gunpowder Plot, the beginning of November was marked by bonfires, torchlit processions and burned sacrifices (to drive away evil spirits). The sacrifices, like the bonfire itself, represented all that was undesirable of the old year, consigning it to ashes and history, never to be repeated.
Apparently the old year's "evil spirits" were represented by dummies (effigies) that were called "guys". Does seem a major coincidence if so..
Anyway, I'm going to throw in my regular mention of the Lewes Bonfire, for which people dress up in fantastic outfits (well, some of 'em do), walk through the old town in torchlit processions, and watch some of the best fireworks in the world. Oh, including effigies of Guy Fawkes, and "tableaux" effigies of hateful people or events from the previous year:
http://www.cliffebonfire.co.uk/TabGallery.htm
Shame they haven't got last year's (unusually predictable) Bin Laden here yet.
Ah, from another site:
http://www.janeandrichard.co.uk/photos/bonfire_2001/
These effigies and tableaux aren't burnt, incidentally - they are all-in-one firework displays that don't blow up completely until right at the end.
Usually.
I could write lots more about this, but reckon I'll leave it there.
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/27/02 04:01 PM
taking the thread on a turn, i liked the little bit about Colbalt, Re:The word comes from the Greek kobalos, 'rogue', which was the source also of the German malicious spirit of mines called a kobald, associated particularly with troublesome rubbish among the good silver ore. That rubbish actually contained a lot of arsenic and sulphur, which accounted for its evil reputation, as it was a danger to health as well as 'poisoning' the ore and making the silver more difficult to extract. In 1730 the element now called cobalt was extracted from this apparent waste rock and so its name has a direct etymological link with the goblin.
O Sacks had half of this information in Uncle Tungsten, (ie, kolbald, being a german word for a goblin, or mischief maker, and being a trouble some spirit in the ore, and giving its name to the element, but didn't take the word back to the greek)
platnium has an interesting origin too,
O Sacks had half of this information in Uncle Tungsten, (ie, kolbald, being a german word for a goblin, or mischief maker, and being a trouble some spirit in the ore, and giving its name to the element, but didn't take the word back to the greek)
platnium has an interesting origin too,
cobbler's last - 10/27/02 07:02 PM
Jackie:
I wish I'd known. I have a last that my many times great grandfather used to make shoes for trade with Indians. A last made for a Caucasian won't work because Indians' feet are quite different from those of the "white man." It has been immortalized as The Last of the Mohicans.
TEd (grinning and running for cover-e)
I wish I'd known. I have a last that my many times great grandfather used to make shoes for trade with Indians. A last made for a Caucasian won't work because Indians' feet are quite different from those of the "white man." It has been immortalized as The Last of the Mohicans.
TEd (grinning and running for cover-e)
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/27/02 10:41 PM
>I didn't read the site as saying that celebrating Halloween was an alien tradition over here - just the "trick & treat" thing
OK. I agree about the trick or treating bit. Those words were never used. We just used to go round in costume to the neighbours but it was mainly parties with bobbing for apples and stuff. I remember making papier mache witches and turnip (as previously discussed) lanterns. Around that time there would be children carrying around various "Guys" all dressed up, requesting a "penny for the Guy", so between them and the carol singers a few weeks later, no-one really tried to ask for money. I'm not sure about guizing, the kids seem to do a poem or tell a joke here, one even turned up with a violin and played quite well, I don't know how traditional a part of guizing that is.
I'm glad to see that Wellingborough is as lively as ever. I'll be sending Mr Capital Kiwi a pair of ear plugs. He is to bonfire night (fortnight) what Scrooge is to Christmas!
OK. I agree about the trick or treating bit. Those words were never used. We just used to go round in costume to the neighbours but it was mainly parties with bobbing for apples and stuff. I remember making papier mache witches and turnip (as previously discussed) lanterns. Around that time there would be children carrying around various "Guys" all dressed up, requesting a "penny for the Guy", so between them and the carol singers a few weeks later, no-one really tried to ask for money. I'm not sure about guizing, the kids seem to do a poem or tell a joke here, one even turned up with a violin and played quite well, I don't know how traditional a part of guizing that is.
I'm glad to see that Wellingborough is as lively as ever. I'll be sending Mr Capital Kiwi a pair of ear plugs. He is to bonfire night (fortnight) what Scrooge is to Christmas!
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/27/02 11:01 PM
Here is some information about the Island of Feltar in the Shetlands:
http://www.island-trail.com/fetlar/index.html
http://www.island-trail.com/fetlar/index.html
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/28/02 02:00 AM
children carrying around various "Guys"
Well, yes--you said they call it guys-ing...
Thanks for the link--a pretty place.
Well, yes--you said they call it guys-ing...
Thanks for the link--a pretty place.
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/28/02 07:02 AM
>children carrying around various "Guys"
Actually, ours were generally too big to carry - here's a description close to my own experience:
"For weeks before November 5, Guy Fawkes Night, my brother and I gathered old rags and discarded clothes to make our "Guy," our effigy of Guy Fawkes, symbol of the Gunpowder Plot.
A little ragged sewing fashioned false feet and hands. We'd stuff a pudgy, vaguely head-shaped bulb on which we'd draw a face. Setting our creation in a borrowed wheelbarrow, we pushed it gleefully up and down the street, accosting every adult we met with broad grins and the ever popular demand: "Penny for the Guy?"
After we raised what felt like a king's ransom, our mother would take us to the shops, and we'd choose all the fireworks we wanted. Fully armed and primed, we eagerly would await the night."
http://www.crescentblues.com/11issue/fawkes.shtml
Actually, ours were generally too big to carry - here's a description close to my own experience:
"For weeks before November 5, Guy Fawkes Night, my brother and I gathered old rags and discarded clothes to make our "Guy," our effigy of Guy Fawkes, symbol of the Gunpowder Plot.
A little ragged sewing fashioned false feet and hands. We'd stuff a pudgy, vaguely head-shaped bulb on which we'd draw a face. Setting our creation in a borrowed wheelbarrow, we pushed it gleefully up and down the street, accosting every adult we met with broad grins and the ever popular demand: "Penny for the Guy?"
After we raised what felt like a king's ransom, our mother would take us to the shops, and we'd choose all the fireworks we wanted. Fully armed and primed, we eagerly would await the night."
http://www.crescentblues.com/11issue/fawkes.shtml
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/28/02 12:54 PM
Yes, Jo - this fits with my experience, too, as does shona's. Halloween is far to near to Guy Fawkes night to make it an effective begging tool. Although, round here, as many people give sweets, fruit or choccie biscuits as money as a response to "trick or treat", whereas "Penny for the Guy" has always been a demand for cash.
Although, round here, as many people give sweets, fruit or choccie biscuits as money as a response to "trick or treat", whereas "Penny for the Guy" has always been a demand for cash.
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/29/02 12:06 AM
"Penny for the Guy" has always been a demand for cash.
Indeed! Though it always used to be a small amount of cash - sixpences in old money, probably no more than 20p these days. Maybe that's why you don't get many home-made guys now, what with the price of kid's toys.
Oh, and decent fireworks cost an arm and a leg, too.
There's good reason I belong to two Bonfire Societies.
(my best mate - a Scot, incidentally - refers to Bonfire Night as "Big Boy's Christmas" [grin])
Indeed! Though it always used to be a small amount of cash - sixpences in old money, probably no more than 20p these days. Maybe that's why you don't get many home-made guys now, what with the price of kid's toys.
Oh, and decent fireworks cost an arm and a leg, too.
There's good reason I belong to two Bonfire Societies.
(my best mate - a Scot, incidentally - refers to Bonfire Night as "Big Boy's Christmas" [grin])
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/29/02 04:50 PM
I'm off to help set up the bangs at East Kirkby in Lincolnshire next weekend for the Lancaster display ... LOTS of fireworks, plus some great non-powder pyros ...
Between 7,000 and 10,000 people are usually there!
I'm soooooo nervous ... not
Between 7,000 and 10,000 people are usually there!
I'm soooooo nervous ... not
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/29/02 05:13 PM
CK:
What do you do to set up the "bangs"? Are there diagrams and that kind of thing for the set-up? And are there all kinds of tarps in case it rains while you're setting up?
What do you do to set up the "bangs"? Are there diagrams and that kind of thing for the set-up? And are there all kinds of tarps in case it rains while you're setting up?
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/30/02 01:22 PM
It's usually flash powder in a plastic containder under some concoction made up of diesel or petrol (for the bang) and naptha (for the smoke) plus other add-ins, like titanium or magnesium (for brightness). It's all electrically fired and waterproof so, no, we don't bother with tarpaulins except for covering the firing board and the timing/music system. What we do very closely resembles (so we're told) an air attack on a WWII airfield. It's not pretty explosions with stars and crackling sparklers!
Re: The Last of the Mohicans. - 10/30/02 02:49 PM
At last! A terrific mnemonic for remembering the cobbler's last.
Many, many thanks, Ted. Wish I'd known you when I had to memorize all the steps to the photosynthesis cycle, well over twenty.
Many, many thanks, Ted. Wish I'd known you when I had to memorize all the steps to the photosynthesis cycle, well over twenty.
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 10/30/02 06:09 PM
flash powder in a plastic containder under some concoction made up of diesel or petrol
You just be careful, okay, Sweet One?
You just be careful, okay, Sweet One?
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 11/01/02 02:35 PM
What we do very closely resembles (so we're told) an air attack on a WWII airfield. It's not pretty explosions with stars and crackling sparklers!
Respect, sirrah.
Though you can't beat a few sky-filling starbursts to round off, especially when synchronised with your ground-level naptha stuff...
You must come to Lewes one November and compare notes!
Respect, sirrah.
Though you can't beat a few sky-filling starbursts to round off, especially when synchronised with your ground-level naptha stuff...
You must come to Lewes one November and compare notes!
Re: All Hallow's Eve - 11/01/02 05:12 PM
in the holiday spirit... i got this this AM...
A man was walking home alone late one night when he hears a.......
BUMP...
BUMP...
BUMP... behind him.
Walking faster he looks back, and makes out the image of an upright
coffin banging its way down the middle of the street towards him.
BUMP...
BUMP...
BUMP...
Terrified, the man begins to run towards his home, the coffin bouncing
quickly behind him ...
faster...
faster...
BUMP...
BUMP....
BUMP.
He runs up to his door, fumbles with his keys, opens the door, rushes
in, slams and locks the door behind him.
However, the coffin crashes through his door, with the lid of the coffin clapping ...
clappity-BUMP...
clappity-BUMP...
clappity-BUMP...
clappity-BUMP...
on the heels of the terrified man.... .
Rushing upstairs to the bathroom, the man locks himself in. His heart is
pounding; his head is reeling; his breath is coming in sobbing gasps.
With a loud CRASH the coffin breaks down the door and comes Bumping and clapping towards him.
The man screams and reaches for something heavy, anything ...his hand comes to rest on a large bottle of Robitussin.
Desperate, he throws the Robitussin as hard as he can at the apparition.
the coffin stops.
robitussin is a common brand of cough syrup in US
A man was walking home alone late one night when he hears a.......
BUMP...
BUMP...
BUMP... behind him.
Walking faster he looks back, and makes out the image of an upright
coffin banging its way down the middle of the street towards him.
BUMP...
BUMP...
BUMP...
Terrified, the man begins to run towards his home, the coffin bouncing
quickly behind him ...
faster...
faster...
BUMP...
BUMP....
BUMP.
He runs up to his door, fumbles with his keys, opens the door, rushes
in, slams and locks the door behind him.
However, the coffin crashes through his door, with the lid of the coffin clapping ...
clappity-BUMP...
clappity-BUMP...
clappity-BUMP...
clappity-BUMP...
on the heels of the terrified man.... .
Rushing upstairs to the bathroom, the man locks himself in. His heart is
pounding; his head is reeling; his breath is coming in sobbing gasps.
With a loud CRASH the coffin breaks down the door and comes Bumping and clapping towards him.
The man screams and reaches for something heavy, anything ...his hand comes to rest on a large bottle of Robitussin.
Desperate, he throws the Robitussin as hard as he can at the apparition.
the coffin stops.
robitussin is a common brand of cough syrup in US