Speaking of the envelopes, does anyone know where "pushing the envelope" comes from?

I was thinking of the same question, hat.

I could be way off base here, but I think it's a flying term, especially from high speed fighter pilots, talking about getting to the front end of the envelope of air that is created when one approaches Mach 1.

Meaning of "push the envelope"


Go to the limits of known performance.

Origin


Originated with aeroplane industry where the limits of a plane's performance
were marked on a two-dimensional graph. The envelope is the area of the graph
that indicates safe usage. In use since the late 1970s.

i also think it to be a WWII era jet test word.

Jets made there appearance in WWII, and after the war, there were many test about there capabilities. these were plotted, (what speeds could they attain at what altitude, what was engine stall speed, etc., and these paramiters were called the envelope (why?) and when test pilots attempted to do thing the planes hadn't been designed to do, (ie, breaking the sound barrier) they were pushing the envelope. (first used extensively in print in "the right stuff"--authors name, is gone for the moment, same guy who wrote bonfire of the vanities, and electric kool ade something.. tom..??)

well, I was close!
though it doesn't necessarily explain the use of the word, "envelope".

Tom Clancy?

no, not tom clancy (leather jackets, aviator glasses) but the one in the natty double breasted white suits.. (from memory of photo's on book jackets.) and yet i still can't remember his name!

Tom Wolfe

thanks, TEd! never read either, but Clancy came to mind, thought I'd offer it...

thanks TEd, that's the guy--

and it works out right for Dr bill's post, first used after WWII, by test pilots, entered the common language in the early 70's, with the publication of the book, The Right Stuff --especially since some chapters of the book first appeared as articles in places like the New Yorker.. so the expression was being used before the book was actually published.

I was teaching amplitude modulation in class today and the professor who is sitting in my class to teach it next semester came to me at the end and said "I bet this is where pushing the envelope comes from" I said, I will ask. Envelope is the message signal which is off set by a constant value to avoid synchronization at the receiver. If the off-set is too much, the message signal (the envelope) is pushed up too high and gets distorted. Since AM radio comes before WWII, maybe they borrowed the term.

might very well be related (Envelope is the message signal which is off set by a constant value to avoid synchronization at the receiver. ) since the information was plotted in a graph format, and looked like a sine wave.. (well, not quite a sine wave, but a amplification wave.. (starting the left, with a steep rise, cresting, coming down a bit, staying almost level for a while, then a steep decline.. (dating myself--but very much like the signal from an old vacuum tube!)))
and since circut boards (integrated circuts) and transistors were just coming into play with the new jets, and -- and there use and performence was being tested at the same time.. the engineers would likely look at the graph and see it similar to the envelope

The phrase pushing the envelope arises from an East Anglian religious sect called the Broad Barringtons who broke away from Methodism in 1924 after a heated disagreement over the use of minor chords in hymns. Edgar Eldridge, founding member of the Barrington group composed a letter to the local circuit minister, the Rev Bill Norman, outlining their objection to the use of these "decadent" chords. There was an altercation outside the General Stores between Norman and Eldridge on 2nd November 1924 which resulted in Elridge composing a letter. On 3rd November 1924, the Broad Barringtons gather round the local Post Office daring Eldridge to send the letter i.e "push the envelope." This led to the famous pub song "Push The Envelope Edgar" which is still sung by ruddy-faced cider drinkers in the East Anglia area to this day. It also led to the expression in question.

were they named for Major Barrington? seems a natural.

Hmm, I'd always guessed it was the mathematical/physical meaning...Quinion agrees that it is, and specifically popularized by The Right Stuff. You can look at his whole article here:

http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-pus1.htm

Kudos! Kudos!

I think you will fit in very well around here. PLEASE keep posting!

I think you will fit in very well around here

Agreed!

Welcome aBoard, Maurice Miner. Great bio.

Yes. I think this is the first time I've ever corresponded with an OBE.

Here in the military part of the US bureaucracy OBE means "overcome by events." "You can stop working on that project, it's been OBE-ed." And in this illustration it is pronounced Oh Bee Eed with the last word rhyming with screed.

Brings up a possible new topic of verbing an acronym, come to think on it.

This led to the famous pub song "Push The Envelope Edgar" which is still sung by ruddy-faced cider drinkers in the East Anglia area to this day. It also led to the expression in question.

I feel a slight tugging sensation coming from my lower extremities!

Here in the military part of the US bureaucracy OBE means "overcome by events." "You can stop working on that project, it's been OBE-ed." And in this illustration it is pronounced Oh Bee Eed with the last word rhyming with screed.

...been called a lot o' things in my time, but this is the first time ever in the pluperfect subjunctive...

were they named for Major Barrington? seems a natural.


Certainly not - we Brits try to avoid the cult of personality, especially in our religious sects (admittedly, not always successfully.)

No: the "Broad" in question is one of the smaller Norfolk Broads - the name given to stretches of water in the flat fenlands of Norfolk, mostly connected to the River Yare and covering many acres of countryside between inland Norwich and Yarmouth, on the coast.

Barrington Broad is one of the most remote and can only be reached by water or by a small, unmetalled road, which is often impassable because of floods. The inhabitants are very inbred, and their Methodism harks back to the days when the Rev. George Beaumont, having been expelled from the Methodist New Connexion, brought his very fiery (and very political!) brand of methodism to Norwich, founding an independent congregation at the Ebenezer Chapel on Ber Street round about 1815. Several branches were formed round the area, including the one at Broad Barrington (confusingly, the name of the village at Barrington Broad.)
Despite a unification of the Methodists during the latter part of the C19, the Barrington lot didn't do much more than pay lip service, so it was quite on the cards that the split described by Maurice should take place.

Musick, you mention an extensive feeling to your lower limbs - have a look at Pooh-Bah's reply to Nanky-Poo in The Mikado !!!!