I won't go so far as to call it a pet peeve, but the use of "try and" instead of "try to"
seems undesirable. From New Scientist, 5 Oct 2002, p41 about preserving wrecked ships
in museums: ".... the best long term solution for most wrecks was not to try and
conserve them out of the water but simply to bury them once again."
I think the editor would have been justified in replacing "to try and" with "to try to".
Comment invited.
Quite agree, Dr Bill. If the phrase had been something on the lines of, "I will try and if I fail I will try something else", fair enough. But the phrase you quote should most definitely be, "I will try to conserve ...".
mostly agree, but this is a fairly common (older) usage of and:
10. Connecting two verbs the latter of which would logically be in the infinitive, esp. after go, come, send, try; familiarly and dialectally after various others.
[1526 Tindale Acts xi. 4 Peter began and expounde the thinge.] 1671 Milton P.R. i. 224 At least to try and teach the erring soul. 1780 Mrs. Thrale Let. 10 June (1788) II. 150 Do go to his house, and thank him. 1819 Moore in N.Q. Ser. i. (1854) IX. 76/1 Went to the theatre to try and get a dress. 1878 Jevons Prim. Pol. Econ. 42 If every trade were thus to try and keep all other people away. Mod. You will come and see us sometimes, won't you?
I agree, Dr Bill. The "try and" substitution for what should be "try to" is very common; I find myself mentally correcting it all the time.
I also absolutely agree with you, Bill. This ranks up high along with 'wait on' for 'wait for', as in, "I waited on her for 45 minutes." To which I always feel like replying with something like, "Oh, did she eat her dinner that fast?"
"try and" rather than "try to" is as bad, IMHO, as the transpondial tendency to posit "visit with" rather than just "visit". When I hear one of our Merckan colleagues say "visit with", it's like two people have met to go and visit some third person ...
So, in the interests of consistency, do all you who so scrupulously try to avoid "try and" exercise no less diligence in avoiding the equally "incorrect" examples quoted by tsuwm? Or do you apply a selective disdain, reserving it only for "try and"?
I dunno, CapK... I'd like to hear Jackie's and Wordwind's take on this -- but to me "visit with" means something different from, and larger than, plain ol' "visit." In the South (of the US, mind you) when you visit with someone you hang around for a while and chat, gossip, drink bourbon and trade grits recipes.
~back to the matter at hand: "try and" has never been part of my speech. I always kinda considered it a Britishism.
Assigning an arbitrary meaning to something doesn't make it correct by redefinition. And quoting people with an insecure grasp of the language simply because they made their errors a long time ago and then conveniently died before we could beat up on them doesn't make them correct by redefinition, either!
The misuse of "try and" to mean "try to" is not a transpondial issue. I hear it from people from all over who claim to speak some flavour of the English language. Probably including me from time to time.
So I guess that eventually to say "I'll try and do something about it" will become the accepted and correct grammar and people who say "I'll try to do something about it" will be seen as merely old gits displaying an archaic usage which should be put down with a shovel. And then, of course, they will quoted by some future tsuwm in spurious support of the unsupportable!
[/rant]
It's the inconsistency I find so delicious. I happen to agree that "try and" is just plain wrong. Yet, I wouldn't hesitate to say "come and see us some time." Surely, if one is wrong the other is, yet one irritates us, while the other is already standard. Which divinity gets to call the shape of these ends?
>It's the inconsistency...
just so.
If the strict application of logic dictated our speech we would never utter another word and peace would reign upon this world.
If the strict application of logic dictated our speech we would never utter another word and peace would reign upon this world.so speech is the root of all evil, eh?
out here in New England, the one that gets to me is:
on accident. as in: "oops, that happened
on accident", rather than
by accident. it corresponds with
on purpose, but just doesn't work for me.
re:If the strict application of logic dictated our speech we would never utter another word and peace would reign upon this world.
Ah, faldage, not a fool, but a philosopher! you must read James Stephen's A Crock of Gold --one of the philosopher's comes to the very same conclusion! (well at least when it comes to speaking to his wife and child, who is sure are total devoid of all logic!
Stephens was a contemporary and friend of Joyce, his poetry is more available than his fiction, and his one of his short storiess was used in Soibhan McKenna's one woman productions, Here are Ladies-- a show about great irish woman of fame and fiction. the title Here are Ladies is from one of Stephens short stories.
he was a popular writer in still in the 1950's, and toured and lectured in US.
here are ladies is about the use of the word lady-- and how its use in US elevated a poor char woman to a cleaning lady, and with the word lady, she found dignity. (stephens was a great fan of US english!)
not a fool, but a philosopher!
There's a difference?
Semantically the point is in the trying.
As in...
All we could do is try, and see if someone would come and explain. (omit comma)
And it is temporal, as in...
We all tried (time one)
and (time two)
then saw (for example)
that milo was right.Sometimes I question the use of "try to" when "try and" would do quite well thank you.
All we could do is try, and see if someone would come and explain. (omit comma)
ewww. omitting the comma would just be wrong. unless you place then after the and. it's a totally different sentence.
and for your second example: why would you ever use to in that situation?
All we could do is try, and see if someone would come and explain. (omit comma)
...omitting the comma would just be wrong. unless you place then after the and. it's a totally different sentence.
Yes!
Explain the totally different meaning between the two.
See. "try and see" means the same as "try to see" but rolls smother off the tongue.
"try and see" means the same as "try to see" but rolls smother off the tongue
You did mean "smoothlier," of course, the adverb rather than the adjective.
Too bad the "correct" constructions are sometimes so awkward as to be unacceptable !
RE:All we could do is try,
or we could remember the immortal words of Yoda, There is no try. There is do or not do.
we tried, and succedded, or tried and failed, and tried again. (or tried to and succedded, or tried to and failed.)
to try is from *tritate, to cull out, to grind, a PP of terere, to rub,thresh grain. See TRITE
First listed defination, to seperate, to set apart, 2) to melt or render (fat) to get to out(the oil) or ore--and so on to 7)to subject to severe test or strain or 8) to test the operation or effect of..or even 9) to attempt to find out ofr determine by experiment or effort.
So right you really are, wofahulicodoc.
Say, while I got you on the phone, can you get me in touch with that committee that decides what is "correct" and what is "ain't". They oughta share updates of their rules with the people that are doing most of the speaking.
I seem to recall a game described some years back in Scientific American (Mathematical Games Dep't) in which one of the possible courses of action was to change one or more rules...Is this Art imitating Life or the other way 'round?
okay, I'm going to try and copy this one more time for the benefit of those who ignored or missed the point the first time:
and ... 10. Connecting two verbs the latter of which would logically be in the infinitive, esp. after go, come, send, try; familiarly and dialectally after various others.
to me this means that statements such as:
I'm going to come and see you tomorrow.
I'm going to try and do that in the morning.
could be read (in the mind's eye) as:
I'm going to come (and) to see you tomorrow.
I'm going to try (and) to do that in the morning.
perhaps "try and" results from a conflation of usages.
perhaps "try and" results from a conflation of usages.
Almost certainly!
ok.
All we could do is try, and see if someone would come and explain.without the comma you're saying that you want someone to come and explain; with the comma, you're going to try something, and then, if that doesn't work, see if someone can come and explain.
try and becomes a throw-away without the comma.
I think...
So, in the interests of consistency, do all you who so scrupulously try to avoid "try and" exercise no less diligence in avoiding the equally "incorrect" examples quoted by tsuwm?
The examples were go, come, send, try.
I haven't seen the alternatives much at all. Apparently, some will say, "Are you going to go and watch the game?", "I will come and see you later.", and "I will send and ??? (I can't even imagine this construction - a little help, somebody?), in addition to the more-familiar "I will try and get the work done."
I have a problem with all of these constructions, when not used precisely. I can see meaning "I will go and I will watch the game" rather than "I will go to watch the game", but 99.42 percent of the time, or more, people using the "try and" construction mean "try to." After all, if one accomplishes the goal (I have gotten the work done), whether or not one was trying (~ attempting) to get the work done becomes irrelevant in most contexts. The trying part becomes relevant only when the task is still in the future and its accomplishment uncertain, or if the task failed but the effort and attitude devoted to it is worth acknowledging. Don't cha think?
On top of all the above...
1671 Milton P.R. i. 224 At least to try and teach the erring soul.
... rings of a different 'try'.
'Testing' and 'enduring' are on different *ends of the action.
Gee everyone, Moses in the form of tsuwm has come down from the mountain twice with tablets etched by the URL gods with pronouncements on this matter.
Forsooth, are we mere mortals of the sodden earth willing to face the wrath of tsuwm on his next descent? -
I think not.
____________
milos, I keep asking you to "come up and see us some time", but I guess your head is somewhere else.
Sometimes I question the use of "try to" when "try and" would do quite well thank you...
"try and see" means the same as "try to see" but rolls smother off the tongue.For once
I have the impression that milum is closest to reality. From my experience in UK, "try and.." is very common in oral communication. I suspect that the alliteration in
try
to gives it a heavier nuance - and
New Scientist emphasizes the colloquial style.
"I'll try and finish the job"
Horrible.
"I'll try to finish the job"
Nice, and better even in a colloquial sense, as:
"Will you finish the job tomorrow?"
- can be answered with:
"I'll try to"
go, come and send are different, my Kiwoid and nuncloid friends - "I'll try and do it" simply doesn't make sense. As Sparteye says and Helen the Yodic implies, you try and succeed (in which case the job is done) or you try and fail (in which case the job's not done).
Steve Harley's "Come Up And See Me", however, isn't bad English. It's a request for his love to come up to his part of town, upstairs flat, whatever and to see him whilst she's (ho's ??) there.
There are differences in meaning, for me.
"I'll try and get the program done this afternoon" means that the program is much less likely to be finished than "I'll try to get the program done this afternoon." In this case the "to" adds some degree of certainty, while the "and" expresses your doubt that you'll get it done.
Similarly, if you tell someone "Please try and keep your room in order," you're not really expecting them to take your advice, compared to "Please try to keep your room in order." The "to" makes it more command-y.
Try and say those last two sentences out loud. The whole rhythm of the sentences changes, and this affects where the "high point" of tone (and thus meaning) is in each one.
FWIW, I would never write the colloquial "try and" unless I was writing the words of a character who needed to say that specifically.