For what must be the 10th time in the last few months, I was doing the Sunday crossword puzzle and they had "dine" as the definition and "sup" for the answer. Sometimes it's the other way around.
One might suppose [he said with a supercilious sneer] that anyone who knows words knows that dinner and supper are not the same meal. When Jonathan Harker arrived chez Dracula, the count told him, "I have already dined and I do not sup."
Dinner has been at different times of the day in different ages and cultures. In 14th century Florence, it was in the late morning (cf. The Decameron where Bocaccio tells of the merry troupe dining in the late morning, then going for a nap), to mid-day (common among rural people and farm families to this day), to late afternoon, about 5:00 (common in cities and towns even now), to early evening (the classic Victorian dinner party had dinner at about 8:00) to late evening (dinner in Spain today is not served earler than 10:00).
Supper, however, always has been an evening meal. In Jane Austen and Victorian novels, supper follows a ball, and is served around midnight and is more of a collation than a meal. The word comes from the French souper which is in turn from soupe and indicates that supper was, in former times, a relatively light meal featuring soup and had the function of tiding you over for the night, your main meal of the day having been earlier.
And what other words for meals? A wedding breakfast, in British usage (it isn't used in the U.S.) may be in the afternoon if the wedding is not in the morning. Is the verb lunch used as commonly outside the U.S. as it is here? And then there's the vast subject of tea. And "elevenses". .... Do y'all in the UK do much other than eat?
Dinner and supper are used interchangeably here in Virginia.
With exceptions. Well, with one notable exception. Sometimes Sunday dinner can refer to a bountiful midday meal.
But my whole life I've heard people refer to both dinner and supper as the evening meals, and generally lunch as the midday meal.
Interesting literary examples you provided there, By!
I remember a discussion on this a while ago and Rhubarb Commando having a good reply. Dinner in Britain was traditionally the main meal, served in the middle of the day in working class homes - in the days when it was possible to go home in the middle of the day and in the evening in upper class homes. As a child I would always call the midday meal dinner and the evening meal "tea". Supper would have been a light meal, such as toast, served before bedtime.
These days I'd tend to use lunch, dinner and supper much as Wordy describes.
[Edit]Here's a link to an earlier discussion:
http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=8454
The nuns in Saskatchewan (mostly of German descent; I'm not sure if that's relevant) who taught me high school used to use the word "lunch" to describe what anyone else might understand as a "bedtime snack". Apparently that's the older meaning of lunch and for some reason it has stuck around in Saskatchewan.
In my own lexicon, the midday meal is lunch, the evening meal is supper, and dinner is either of these if it is substantial. It gets confusing in my house because my husband calls the evening meal dinner pretty consistently. There was one incident of honest confusion one Saturday when we discussed "dinner" for Sunday and he was startled the next day to see me making a big fuss in the kitchen at noon - he was expecting this meal in the evening! (In my family the noon meal on Sunday was always the elaborate one, so it didn't occur to me that he thought otherwise...)
The origin of the word lunch seems to be from a word meaning a "chunk, thick piece of food", possible lump. B&M OED suggests it was based on the perceived relation between such pairs as hump/hunch and bump/bunch. The relation with luncheon may be that luncheon was based on an anaolgy with punch/puncheon and trunch/truncheon. The definitions given for lunch are a mid-day meal or a light meal between two more substantial meals.
In reply to:
The definitions given for
lunch are a mid-day meal or a light meal between two more substantial meals.
The mid-day meal part works for the geographical area I live in, but the "light meal" doesn't always work. I've gone out to lunches that have been substantial--and, yes, people do comment that the lunch was more of a "dinner." But they don't always comment that way.
Something else to point out about lunches. Many of the restaurants here offer "lunch menus." Say, for example, a Chinese restaurant. And usually the lunch menu items are less expensive that the "dinner" menus, and the portions are somewhat smaller. That would tie into the idea of lunch being a smaller meal that dinner or supper.
But not always! There are luncheon buffets--"Eat All You Want"--and, believe me, I've seen people pack away meals that would never be called "light." Well, they don't call 'em 'lunch buffets.' They're always billed as 'luncheon buffets.'
I tend to think of dinner as the evening meal, but I usually call it supper. One year, I was very excited to be invited over for Christmas dinner at my boyfriend's house. The arrangement was that I would phone him when I got home from my family's celebration. So I did, at 1 pm, figuring I had plenty of time to get there by 5 or 6. Imagine my dismay when he said they were just about to sit down to "dinner". Darn! Should've clarified things ahead of time.
In my experience holiday dinners are generally midday affairs, usually a bit later than when lunch would be served. The other common midday dinner, in my experience, is Sunday dinner, which will also be later than lunch.
Well, they don't call 'em 'lunch buffets.' They're always billed as 'luncheon buffets.'
Not here. They go by either name. Actually, I think lunch buffets is more common and means only to refer to the fact that it occurs at noon. Most likely the "light meal" meaning is unknown to many.
i was taught, dinner is the main meal of the day, you may take your dinner midday, or early evening, or even late, but it is the most substantial meal.
Supper is alway a last (latest meal) before sleeping.
breakfast, is always the first meal of the day, from times past, in the old catholic canon, you had to have a 12 hour fast before recieving communion, so you went to mass first, and the broke your fast; breakfast was when you would break- your -fast. since a wedding would often be a church affair, (and since many of the rules of the church of engand are very similar to roman catholic rules) i suspect one would have a 'wedding breakfast' the parties would fast, be married at a ceremony that included a mass, take communion, and after break their fast.
my grandparents (in ireland) always had dinner at mid day, and their evening meal was tea. i can't remember if tea was more substantial than dinner, but it did often include hot food like boiled potatoes, and meat.
we always had dinner in the evening - except for sunday dinner, which was usually about 3 or 4 (breakfast was late, 9 or 10 or even 11 depending on which mass we went to)
in the evening (after 7 or so) we would have fruit or cheese, or some times soup-- but it was not quite an organized meal, rather just bits and pieces.
Lunch and luncheon was an american word/concept to my parents. my mother was particularlly confused by luncheonettes. Who would eat in one she wondered? she like to go to a pastry shop, and sit and have a cup of tea, and maybe a bit of sweet, but eat lunch out?
you took your lunch with you, going to work, or we children came home, and at lunch at home.
now, more often than not, i eat meal in front of the television, and i am very flexible about time and what i eat when.
but no one has brought up brunch-- the term for a late breakfast, early lunch, (11 ish or so) that friend often get together for on weekends. it's not quite breakfast, since many times, you have already had coffee and juice, if not solid food, and the food served is more substantial than breakfast fare.
My experience is similar to of troy's, namely that dinner was always the most substantial meal,
always at noon. I never heard of lunch until I left home.
For me, the word breakfast symbolizes my first attempt at etymology. I was five or six years old and decided since breakfast was a quick meal it must mean a "fast break" and someone decided to switch the words. My mother quickly steered me in the right direction (being a wordlover herself).
we always had dinner in the evening - except for sunday dinner, which was usually about 3 or 4 (breakfast was late, 9 or 10 or even 11 depending on which mass we went to) in the evening (after 7 or so) we would have fruit or cheese, or some times soup-- but it was not quite an organized meal, rather just bits and pieces.
We made up a name for this: fend-for-yourself supper.
Growing up on the West Coast, we consistently used breakfast, lunch, and dinner. My aunt, who seems to be a little more entrenched in her Midwestern roots, always refers to the evening meal as supper, and that *still* seems to be the deal here in the Midwest.
Another variation, relative to times of day - breakfast is the early morning meal, but if it stretches too close to noon, it becomes
brunch (also used for fancy buffet-type affairs on certain holidays - Mothers' Day and Easter pop to mind). And on a lazy Sunday, if my roommate and I haven't pulled ourselves together well during the day, the main meal sometimes happens around the traditional tea time - 3 or 4 - and we've coined
lupper to describe that phenomenon.
of troy, your mention of 'tea' brings to mind a story.
I was a foreign exchange student in Albury, NSW one year and wasn't given a crash course in Oz dialect prior to arriving. The first couple of evenings I was there I was asked if I'd like some tea. I responded 'no' as I really don't like tea - sweetened, unsweetened, or hot tea for that matter. After then seeing the family sit down and eat supper without me, I finally caught on.
In Mexico, and many other Spanish-speaking cultures, they have desayuno (ayuno meaning fast as in fasting) usually a continental-type breakfast upon arising. In the late morning they have almuerzo, usually eggs, beans and tortillas. Somewhere between 1:00 and 3:00 is the comida, the substantial meal of the day. Early evening, around 8:00 they have the cena, a light supper. And then there is the requisite 3:00-4:00am menudo if you've been out having several pints.
Personally, the smell of menudo makes me wish I hadn't had that last pint or two
the smell of menudo makes me wish I hadn't had that last pint or two
And I always found menudo to be the perfect antidote to that last pint or two. Guess it takes all kinds.
I just woke up from a four-hour nap following a very long and liquid lunch at a pub that's just opened down the road. I'm just about due for my menudo ...
My experience was about the same as of troy's experience.
Evening meal about 6 p.m. - dinner - a large meal but Sunday dinner about 3 p.m. On occasion supper/dinner were used for the same meal. I learned the difference when on my first trip to Ireland. The B&B I stayed in offered "breakfast and supper" so I skipped dinner and had to make do with tea, toast and jam for *supper!
supper is weekdays, anywhere from 5-7, unless you go out, and then it's dinner. dinner also for Sunday, early to mid afternoon.
dinner usually implies something a bit fancier...
I've been thinking about all of this, and realise that, throughout my life, there have been quite substantial changes in the way I refer to different meals.
I was brought up to Breakfast, Dinner, Tea (occasionally, supper after that). When I went to school, the mid-day meal served in the canteen was always "School Dinners" (and pretty horrible they were, too
) but many of my school-mates brought "lunch" with them, which was to be eaten at the mid-morning break - about 10.30 ish. They then went on to eat "School Dinner", so it was not a substitute - it was additional fodder.
When I started work, however, the firm's canteen served Lunch from midday to 1 pm - and this was just as substantial a meal as School Dinner, although much more palatable. If I then had a cooked meal in the evening (which I usually did) that was called Dinner. All of the above took place in London. "Tea" was a meal that I rarely took - usually when invited out to someone's home, or at my own home on a Sunday. It consisted of bread & butter with jam, fish- or meat-paste, and a cutting cake (i.e., not individual small cakes - one big one that was shared out) which was either a sponge- or a fruit-cake.
I still call my meals breakfast, lunch, dinner now that I've moved North, but have become very accustomed to hearing local people refer to the main, evening meal as their tea. The light luncheon that they take to work is known as "baggins" in these parts.
Dinner is the mid-day meal on Sunday, or what you have if you go out to a restaurant.
"Tea" was a meal that I rarely took - usually when invited out to someone's home, or at my own home on a Sunday. It consisted of bread & butter with jam, fish- or meat-paste, and a cutting cakeYep, definitely my main association, Rhuby, probably making this mainly a Southern (English) thing. Tea's more of an extra than a standard meal, often associated with holidays. You can have several different types of tea, though - I'd think can of pink salmon rather than fish-paste, for instance, and "posh" teas probably
would include little dainty cakes as well as the cutting cake(s), etc.
Tea is often a follow-up to a good hearty lunch, and may include cold meat left over - this especially applies to Christmas tea, where you also have other cold meats (say ham), pickles and whatnot (yum!). But tea's generally more sweet than savoury.
However, I have to say that sometimes it doesn't feel right calling my evening meal (8pm-ish) "dinner", and it's too early to be called "supper". It depends a bit upon how casual an affair the meal is, and how much effort it takes to prepare the meal, but "dinner" is definitely more like meat & two veg than Spag Bol. Spag Bol would be "tea".
Similarly if I'm getting home early enough to have fish & chips (
) with my family - say, 6pm - I'd definitely call that tea. I'd also drink tea
with it, but that may be by the by.
Of course my wife is a Brummy so I may just have been corrupted by her North-of-Watford influence.
Oh, always "lunch" for the midday (-ish) meal for me, BTW.
"Dinner" is always an evening thing (often special occasion), and "supper" is a very occasional late night extra. After-pub snacks don't qualify - it has to be a sit-down meal, cooked in the kitchen, that you eat around 10pm.
Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've ever had supper.
Around here (New England) any food taken after 10 p.m. is usually called "a midnight snack" not supper.
Is that a US-only saying? Or do you use it across the pond and up North? (Hi Bean)
If I "have tea" in late afternoon it's usually just a cup of tea perhaps with a cracker/cookie/toast if really hungry (no lunch!) This is what was called "A cup in your hand" in Ireland - rather than High Tea!
a midnight snackTo me this has a very specific meaning of having been in bed, then getting up needing "a little something" and eating in the kitchen in your pyjamas. If it's food in the late evening and I've been awake all day, I'll call it a "bedtime snack".
What I have concluded from this thread is that if any one of us were to invite anyone else over for a meal, the mealtime would probably have to be in UTC or something, to account for different time zones, and the meal itself would have to remain unnamed, so as not to cause confusion among dinners/supppers/lunches/teas. And as a result no one would quite know what type of food would be forthcoming!
Dear FoaB, I remember the more filling type of tea such as you describe used to be called "high tea" and was commonly served when there were visitors to be fed. There was often a strong element of FHB about it too. Not sure why it was called high tea, I'll Google it when I've got a minute. Could have been a south of England thing, but my family came from all over so who knows!
'ephew, please to splain me Spag Bol. All I can come up with is spaghetti bolognese.
Spag Bol. All I can come up with is spaghetti bologneseThat would be it, 'tie - although I'm pretty sure that traditional Brit Spag Bol would have very little resemblance to pasta dishes that are (or have been) cooked in the vicinity of Bologna.
Traditional Brit "Spanish Omelettes" are similarly laughable (basically a vegetable omelette, often with
frozen veg
).
Though really I'm talking about 1960s-ish convenience cooking here - times have changed. A bit.