In church this morning, the banns were published for a couple who are to be married in October. We got talking about it afterwards at breakfast and my mother said that in her day, the woman was referred to as the "spinster" of such-and-such a parish, and the man as the "bachelor" of such-and-such a parish.

What I want to know is, howcome men get to be "bachelors" instead of, like, you know, "millers" or "masons" or something, and women are defined as "spinsters"? How did both those words originate to describe single members of the sexes?

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

in pre industrial days, it took a dozen spinners to keep 1 weaver employed. and other yarn was spun for mending, and knitting..

spinning is not so demanding that it can't be done as a simple household chore, and young girls could spin, and so earn a small dowery for them selves.. but once they had families, it was hard to find the time to spin...
only unmarried women continued to spin past the age of 20 or so.. so many woman were spinsters till they married, and most married by age 20 or so.

spinning was one of the few occupations a woman could engage in, and still keep her reputation.

thanks of troy - but what about "bachelor" - and why are the two terms so different? my Canadian Oxford gives the historical meaning of "bachelor" as "a young knight serving under another's banner" - so does this mean once he turns to husbandry (agriculture), he's settled down and married? And why is a spinster a "woman, especially an older one, thought unlikely to marry" when a bachelor is just "an unmarried man" - no reference to age and no apparent stigma?

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Dear MG: the early use of bachelor referred to a young man. Few young men could afford
tp get married. Spinster wasn't intended as a put-down, and only became one when applied
to an old maid. Today we have bachelors and bitchelors. (coined by a female)
I have been told that it was only about a hundred years ago that Massachusetts law
requiring all children to be taught to spin was taken off the books. I knew a woman from
rural MA whose family had made all their own fabric and garments. Locally called swamp Yankees.
They chose independence at the price of a low standard of living. As of troy pointed out it
took quite a few spinners to keep one weaver busy.

Before the invention of the spindle, did people spin and, if so, how was it done?

And something else. Cotton is cotton. Least I think it is. why are Egyptian cotton sheets so terribly expensive--exspinsive?

I'll bet you dollars to donuts of troy knows!

cotton is one of a few plant that were domesticated in both the new world and the old world.. and there is cotton and there is cotton. some cottons have longer thinner fibers. some are short. long thin fibers spin up into thinner stronger thread, and my egyptian cotton sheets are 250 count. that is, in one square inch of fabric, 125 threads going one way, 125 threads crossing.. (they feel like satin they are so smooth!)

sea isle cotton is another wonderful cotton, a hybrid of new world cotton and egyptian, it grows along the coast of the carolina's, (is was first developed on sea isle) and it ranks with egyptian cotton as some of the finest in the world.

now days, they are developing cottons with color. cotton is naturaly close to white, but not quite. some cottons are whiter. but with the use of hybrids, cotton is being grown in heathery shades of green, red, tan and blue...
(what do i mean by heather... soft.. washed out blue jeans could be called a heather blue.)

colored cotton keeps it color --it not a dye that can wash out or fade, its better for the environment(no harsh chemical run off from dying process. )

and before spinning wheels, spindles were free. the sort of looked like a wooden top (the child's toy) a dowel, about 12 to 15 long, with a crochet like hook at one end, and a wooden disk on one end. (i first said lower end but the site showed two examples, lower and upper, and upper was more common.)

you spun the spindle by hand, and spun as you walked(tending sheep or what not--remember for many thousand of years, humans where migrants.)

it is much harder to get a uniform thread done this way. but if you keep pretty still, you can do quite fine.
i look and see if i can find a picture of hand spindle.

here are some beautiful hand spindles. it enough to make you want to go out and get some wool!
http://www.paradisefibers.com/spindles/index.asp

Thanks, of troy. Nice image of a spinning top with some shepherdess sitting by a flock...doing two jobs at once.

If you get a chance to answer this one, too: Was the spinning top spinner the same one that was used in spinning flax, too? Or did modifications have to be made.

Holy Toledo! the prices on those spindles were outrageous. Any woman clever enough to spin
yarn with one of them could build one herself significant cash, about a tenth of cost of a
spinning wheel, which will work much faster and better than aimple whorl. But even with a
spinning wheel, it will be a long time before you have yarn enough to weave enough fabric
for doll clothes. My wife did a considerable amount of spinning, but never got to weave any
of it. And she didn't do any knitting. Take my advice, and don't get involved.

Along with spinster, another term that comes to mind is distaff, as in "the distaff side."
http://www.smith.edu/hsc/museum/ancient_inventions/distaff2.html

Also, isn't there a subtle difference between bachelor and confirmed bachelor?

'Tis all very interesting and I liked the hand-spindle website - there is worlds and worlds out there (or whorls and whorls...?).

but but but: WHY "spinster" and "bachelor"? an odd pairing, doesn't anyone else think so? Why are single members of one sex referred to by trade, and single members of t'other sex, not? is what I'se getting at. Any thoughts, anyone?

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

The term "spinster" is obviously archaic. How about just "maiden"?
Mostly with tongue in cheek, how about just "eligible", the adjective as a noun
for an unwed male?

another term that comes to mind

Thanks, slithy. Me Mum mentioned this term as well this morning - so at last I know what it means! (from you and from her) - I remember hearing my Dad use it but I was that young, I thought he was just being Dad, so I didn't ask him what he meant....

All these stills of spindles and distaffs are driving me crazy! I've seen women sitting and spinning at wheels, at living museums like Upper Canada Village in Morrisburg, Ontario; but I can't picture how these hand spindles are used. Is there a site out there with some video of a demonstration, perchance? (I ask because I haven't the foggiest what to google to get a moving picture of a certain thing....and it's late and I'm tired and I'm going to bed! so, ahem, am asking others to do my homework for me.... )

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Dear MG: here is URL with lots of pictures, if you click on button at top next to far right.
Maybe your vision is enough better than mine that you can get more out of them than I could.
http://kws.atlantia.sca.org/pictures.html All pictures can be enlarged.

Hi again, MG!

Traditionally both bachelor and spinster relate to occupation, don't they? Somebody (I think Bill) has already mentioned that "spinster" only became derogatory when applied to old maids - the implication being that they were undesirable as wives. Incidentally I'll bet the derogatory usage was created as much by women as men

How about just "maiden"?
As long as you're making the (archaic) virginal component optional, Bill..

how about just "eligible"
Hmmm, nice. "S/he's an eligiblee"


In Shrek the magic mirror presents the princesses as bachelorettes . Is that tongue-in-cheek or in some sense a standard usage over the Pond?

Re: Fisk's bachelorette question ~

If I remember the movie correctly, it was intended as a parody of The Dating Game, an awful excuse for a game show that's been on for ages. It may have had some integrity back in the day, but my friend Ann scored an appearance as a bachelorette about 5 years ago, and she was very candid with me about the process... it's now purely a vehicle for people to be "discovered" in Hollywood.

here is URL with lots of pictures

Thanks Bill....My eyesight probably is better than yours, but I still had a hard time with these pix. I'm still a bit in the dark cos these ladies is all holding the spindle t'other way to how I supposed it was held. I still can't quite picture how it's done so I guess I'm not a spinster!

hahahahahahahaha!

I crack myself up.

No, really - how the heckinheimer do the blasted hand spindle thingies work? I realise the fabric thread gets wound on somewhere, but how does it get fed onto where it gets wound to, which hand do you use to hold what, what do you turn (the spindle presumably - or is it your hand?), and if you're using both hands where do you put the distaff?

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

" Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil
not, neither do they spin."

the set of pictures with Lady Soibhan, were the best...

you hold the unspun wool, in you right hand and a bit of what is on the spindle, you drop the spindle and use you left hand to set it spinning.. as it spins, you play out the rat of unspun wool.. until the spindle is almost to the floor. You unhook the yarn, wrap it round the shaft below the bob, except for a bit that you hook on to the hook a the top, and take an other roll (rat) of wool, and start the spindle spinging again... repeat for an eternity, and you will have a skein of wool, after 4 or 5 eternities, you will have enough wool to knit a sweater.

we forget how much effort went into spinning and clothes production. (knitting, for many years was the mark of cheap clothing. it was faster than weaving, and required less fitting.)

the famous statue (armless) of venus de milo, it thought to be a woman spinning (her right arm is held high, to draw the thread, her left, low, spinning the spindle.)

greek woman, (of whom we know so little) created yards and yards of cloth, that was bartered for gold, silver, iron, tin, and copper..minerals that were in short supply naturally. keep to their houses as virtual prisoners, they spun and wove, and create the wealth of greece. (this is evident because there are no mentions what so ever as spinning being a craft that a man was occupied at-- and all the wool form all those sheep had to dealt with by someone!-- we also know of penelopie, who sat by her loom, and wove.)

being a spinster is not all that bad a thing!

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board
We used to have spinsters, MG. Now we have spinmeisters. Spinmeisters spin words instead of cotton.

You're a bit of a spinmeister yourself, MG. A U.S. politician [was it Rockefeller?] used to end his speeches with an invocation to "the brotherhood of man in the fatherhood of God". Before long, the press described this ventilation as "bomfog".

"Peace", "Love" and "Service" seems to be the essence of your message, MG. Maybe we can shorten it to "PLS" ... to please everyone.

Dear wordminstrel:

You play/sing your tune/song and I'll sing mine, 'k?! Let us go in peace to love and serve the board plses me. I don't actually feel the need to pls "everyone" (you can pls some of the people, some of the time, but you can't pls all of the people all of the time) and in this, I choose to pls myself. Them as doesn't like it, doesn't need to read it, no?

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Hey wordminstrel. Take a deep breath and chill out. This post to mg and the one you made to CapK on another thread are certainly the type of personal comments, if you feel they need to be said in such a tone at all (I dunno why), would best be said in private...that's what the PM is for.

personal comments .... that's what PM is for
You make a good point, WhitmanO'N.

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board ... but let us PLS ourselves first.

Flagrantly ignoring WO'N's very good advice (sorry honey! you know I love you anyway!) - as, indeed, wordminstrel has -

wordminstrel, since you're so keen on plsing others, why don't you take a long walk off a short pier? That would pls me enormously.

Cheers!

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

i am glad to see that you are back :-)

I think that the usage of B and S words to name an old maiden and an unmarried man is purely accidental. I compare it with a totally unrelated language (Russian, as you probably guessed) and here a spinster is called literally "old virgin" and a bachelor has the same root as the verb meaning "to be neutered". I know that Russian women used to do a lot of spinning as well but still we do not call an old maiden "prjadil'schica"

Hi Vika! Wow, that's interesting - that in Russian, it's "old virgin," and the same root as "to be neutered" for men....Somehow that makes me feel better about "spinster" and "bachelor"!

Now I'm beginning to wonder from whence the surname "Batchelor" derives....Anyone know?

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

why don't you take a long walk off a short pier?
At least we know what "peace", "love" and "service" mean to you, MG.

it's now purely a vehicle for people to be "discovered" in Hollywood.

Ah! Wink, nudge, say no more.

Thanks FB.

Russian and English are not unrelated, vika. Both evolved from indo-european.

At least we know what "peace", "love" and "service" mean to you, MG.

Dear wordminstrel: Pls don't call me "MG". That implies a friendly familiarity which you obviously do not feel. In fact, pls refrain from addressing me at all, since you are so obviously only concerned with attacking me. Merci bien.

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

>Poster: AnnaStrophic

>Russian and English are not unrelated, vika. Both evolved >from indo-european.
I agree. what I really mean is that they are more distant relatives than English and German, for example. I wonder how
spinster/bachelor are called in German.