While on vacation I found an old book (printed in 1852) by Frances M. Whitcher called The Widow Bedott Papers. There are several words in the book that are used now but do not mean what the author is trying to say.

I'm not sure to what the autor refers to in the following two cases:

When the Widow Bedott has to go out she takes the time to put on her man-killer. Now this is a very down to earth book so it has nothing to do with sexy clothing. I'm assuming it is some sort of outerwear but have no clue.

Also, when she was traveling on a coach, she reached into her ridicule to pull out a poem she had written some time before. I thought it might be a purse but considering she was traveling for a while it could have been some sort of luggage.

I've looked in my trusty MW but couldn't find. Does anybody have any idea?

'ridicule' looks like a substitution for 'reticule' ~ is it part of an ironic or comic effect, Bel?

ridicule is a perversion of réticule.

Dickens O. Twist, ‘Pockets, women's ridicules, houses, mailcoaches...,’ said Mr. Claypole.


there was also a cloak or tunic which was termed a "man-killer" because it was caught up quite high at the bottom.

"Ridicule" could be a very gross mis-spelling of "reticule".

.
reticule < L reticulum, dim. of rete, net: see RETINA6
1 a woman‘s small handbag, orig. made of network and usually having a drawstring
2 RETICLE

OH-SO-FABULOUS 50'S STRAPLESS SARONG DRESS!! - HERE I AM
JUST BACK FROM MY CLOTHES HORSE ANONYMOUS MEETING READY
TO GIVE UP ANOTHER ITEM FROM MY CLOSET THAT, SADLY, HAS
GOTTEN TOO TIGHT-AND NOT IN A GOOD WAY...SO CHECK IT OUT! WE
ARE TALKING AN UNBELIEVABLY FABULOUS STRAPLESS SARONG FROM
THE 50'S!! YEAH-THE PICTURES LOOK OK, BUT WHEN YOU WEAR IT IT
IS A KNOCK-OUT! TRUST ME ON THIS ONE-TOTAL MAN-KILLER
MATERIAL HERE! IT IS STRAPLESS, WITH BONING IN THE SIDES FOR
SHAPE-AND THROUGH THE CENTER OF THE BUST FOR THE LOOK OF A
BULLET BRA! IT IS VERY STRAIGHT AND FITTED SARONG SKIRT WITH
CASCADING SWAG DOWN THE SIDE-FABULOUS!! IT ZIPS UP THE BACK,
IS MADE OF A HEAVY COTTON IN NAVY AND IVORY AND MEASURES AS
FOLLOWS:34/36 IN. BUST, 27 IN. WAIST, 38 IN. HIPS, 11 IN. FROM
TOP OF THE BUST TO WAIST, AND 30 IN. FROM WAIST TO HEM. IN
EXCELLENT CONDITION-THERE ARE A FEW PULLED THREADS AT THE
SEAM OF THE KICKPLEAT, AND A FEW SPOTS-HARD TO SEE DUE TO
THE PRINT, REALLY MINOR. THIS IS FABULOUS, AND OH-SO-SEXY! GET
IT NOW OR REGRET IT FOREVER!

Out of context a little, Bill, I do believe.

one might say, er, busting out of context.

but I wouldn't.

GET IT NOW OR REGRET IT FOREVER!

Sold! What do you want for it, Bill?

Dear CK & Hyla: Pity you had nothing more to contribute than some sneers at
what I found, when you could find nothing.

I believe most of us know what "man-killer" means now, Dr Bill. The question is, what did it refer to in 1852?

Much the same thing.And if you knew what it meant, why did you not tell us

Bill, your "contribution" was out of context and that's all I said. I don't have anything to add to the definition, only a knowledge that what you posted indicated that you didn't, either.

Dear CK: It appeared that belMarduk wanted corroboration of what "man-killers" might
refer to. I just posted what I found to indicate that it had at least in the quoted
context referred to extreme of style. You were perfectly free to make a more
pertinent post. You have not posted anything more appropriate. Of course,
you would not be guilty of phthonos.

in re-reading belM's original post, it seems like it doesn't have anything to do with our current concept of the phrase. (where is he, anyway? he hasn't returned to this brilliant discussion. )
I wondered if it might be something like a take off(or better yet, put on) of Mackintosh? though that seems a bit plain for the description of her behavior.

anyway, just trying to steer this back on track...

Thanks, etaoin (I'm still trying to work out what your handle means!). I wonder if belM will want to return after she sees the mess!

Dr Bill (last-ditch attempt): Yes, I know what 'man-killer' means now. No, I do not know what it meant in 1852. Neither does belM. That's why she posted the query in the first place.

RE:--in re-reading belM's original post, it seems like it doesn't have anything to do with our current concept of the phrase. (where is he, anyway? he hasn't returned to this brilliant discussion)

OOPs!-- Etaoin, but BelMarduk is a she not a he!

a very pretty she at that! Stacked about right to fill the man-killer that was advertized for sale, with a little bit left over to puff out of the top!

But don't worry, you're not the first, nor i expect the last to make that mistake..

yikes! my many apologies!! I had a 50/50 shot after reading her profile...



aStro, I'll give you some more time to think about it...

not the first, nor i expect the last to make that mistake..

Well, if one will name oneself after one (or more) god(s)...

And would it help to know that etaoin's last name is shrdlu? (or maybe shldru, both variations are known in the wild)

I usually use shrdlu, unless I'm incognito...

ASp, I quote myself from above: there was also a cloak or tunic which was termed a "man-killer" because it was caught up quite high at the bottom. I got this from a 1925 (uncopyrighted) translation of the "Love Books of Ovid": http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/ovid/lboo/lboo03.htm

-joe c. liver

it was caught up quite high at the bottom

To the esteemed Mr. liver, or any who can assist in this matter: What does the above mean? The words do not bring a clear image to mind. If this description means that this is a short tunic that exposes the ankle, heaven forfend, then it seems that the sense of "man-killer" as being rather racy also applies here, even if Widow Bedott does not don it with that intent.

Yes, Mr c.liver,

Ovid and his ilk wore tunics. I don't think they did in Victorian England. I'm still confused.

And etaoin, you are adding to my general confusion.

what I think I'm suggesting, and I can't be sure of this as I'm feeling a bit spotty and contemptible these days, is that the Widow Bedott donned a cloak cut in the style of a classic tunic.

-jcl

Allo all...

I think you've hit the nail right on the head with the ridicule / reticule / reticle connection since she reached into it to get a poem.

Based on the rest of the dialogue in the book it seems quite appropriate that she would mispronounce the word as ridicule. She fairly butchers several other words...i.e. she often uses the word consarn. It took me several different sentences in which she used it to realize she was saying concern. Some I never figured out.

There is a lot of regional dialect used which made the characters seem all the more real.

I really liked the book - it created a vivid verbal picture of life in the era, warts and all.

The man-killer description from 1925 would seem to fit the bill. It is only some 75 years after she wrote the stories so the word could still have been in use at the time.

Also, what with all the layers a woman had to put on at that time, one where you could see a woman's legs or ankles would certainly have been considered daring.

___________________________________________________

of Troy...what a poetical description of my, um, personality .

Don't worry about it etaoin, the moniker does seem to give the impression of masculinity though a visual inspection - even from afar - would quickly dispel that notion.

dearest bel, your personality is a human, (and very humanistic) but i was describing your anatomy! -- clearly, if you met etaoin, (or he/she met you) there would be no question about which pronoun to use! the dress described would fit about a US size 12.. (you're a size 12 i think) but it might be a bit tight on top... still if it were strapless, and shouldless, i expect you'd fit, and fill it out nicely-- and would easily make the garment live up it its name.. man-killer.. any many would kill to go out with you once they saw you in it!

and yes, i suspect it is not really your type dress, but i expect you could play the vamp, even if you don't normally do so!

again, bel(I should have figured it out from that!), my sincerest apologies. in this case, it sounds like a picture would have sorted it all out! someday perhaps, these forums will be little videos, with captions, of course! then there won't be any hiding behind our monikers...

which brings me to AnnaStro: etaoin shrdlu is the order of letters, sorted by frequency, of use in English. I have to admit I was surprised to find it still available as a nickname when I signed on. anyway, I am a man, who's real name is roger. and as a man, thanks to you Helen, I now have a very vivid picture of bel in my head!

, I now have a very vivid picture of bel in my head!


... and so have all of us who have met her!

I'll certainly take you out, bel, if you wear a dress like Bill has advertised! (I wonder when he wore it?)

etaoin shrdlu is the order of letters, sorted by frequency, of use in English.

Well, thank you for that! I was going crazy trying to work it out. Now I can appear on "Wheel of Fortune" with confidence.

BTW I see from your bio you're a music kind of guy. Lots of us here!

Actually, etaoin shrdlu is the order of keys of the first two columns on the linotype keyboard ... etaoin and sh were tapped with the left hand, the rest with the right.

The reason they are so well known is that they used to frequently appear in error in newspapers when the operator filled a line out by running the forefinger of his left hand down those two columns on the keyboard.

I have an Advanced Trade Certificate in the use of the linotype machine. I last used on in anger in 1975, when computers displaced all our hard-won skills. Talk about ancient history!

Yes, CapK - it was a sad day when the genus Compositor was replaced by the daisy wheel

(I can afford to laugh - I prgrammed one of the first phot-typesetting machines, the Lumizip (!) and had to become a member of the NGA to do so!)

thanks CK, for adding that to my information. I should have known that, as my father's family ran a print shop for many years. somewhere I have slugs with my name(backwards of course!). one of my fondest memories is of sitting on the vibrating collating table. whee!
without checking too many more sites, it seems like both explanations are correct: linotype and frequency.

Ooooo, a vibrating vibrating collating table. Where does one buy this

Rhu, what is a daisy wheel?

Ooooo, a vibrating vibrating collating table. Where does one buy this

Probably the same place Cap got his vibrating... er.. cellphone, bel

it was a sad day when the genus Compositor was replaced by the daisy wheel

Rhu, what is a daisy wheel?

Ooo, Ooo, I know! as typewriters moved to being electronic, you got back to the same problems that had force typewriter manufacutors to employ the QWERTY layout..
people could type fast! and if you went to fast, all the mechanism that drove the keys jammed..

several manufactors came up with different solutions.

IMB came out with its famous ball-- and other big design inovation was the daisy wheel.. think of a plastic daisy about 3 inches across.. at the very tip was the "letter" in the center a slotted hub. the petals of the daisy, were slightly flexable. the wheel could turn, (and there were several design for turning.. one just had the wheel always spinning, and just being stuck when the right letter was dead center at the top, the other had a wheel the moved in either direction, the fastest way to put the letter in position.

both the ball and the daisy wheel had many fewer moving parts.. the ball twisted and turned until it was in position, and then it fell forward onto the ribbon..

the daisy wheel spun, and had only one "hammer" to press the letter on the petal end to create a letter.. one hammer (not 55 or 60, meant no more hammer jams.)

an other great feature of both, was they were removeable, and replacable.. so you could change fonts.. and have pica or courier, or some other font..and you could by different font sizes.. so you could have a true 10 or 12 point font. or an italic font.

with a bit of effort, you could have a single document that had a size 12 pica, a size 10 pica and an italics pica in either size.. Documents that looked typed set! from a computer or even from a typist.

my first computer had a brother daisy wheel typewriter with a computer interface as a printer. (my ex refused to learn anything about computers, and wanted an electronic typewriter in the house.. this did double duty for 10 years or so.)

a third kind of professional printer (one actually still found, since they are almost indestructable, and still work, and are fast, so they are still in use) is a belt printer.. it had the letters in order, in a big belt.. each belt had about 3 to 5 copies of every key possible.. and each printer had oh, 90 hammers.. but each hammer was straight (think of a piano board.. each key almost a straight path to each hammer.. piano hammer don't jam because the are hitting each other.. (typewriter hammers were in a semicircle,and each was aimed at the same spot.)

so here is this belt. standing still, there are 90 hammers, and infront of each hammer is a letter..or a symbol. depending on the set, this could be from 75 characters to 200!
(a quick count, and i see i have 75 symbols associated with my 101 key board.. but i can print other symbols, like a paragraph symbol..)

each hammer is a space on a peice of paper.. (up to 14 inches wide)-- and since each one is straight, it doesn't interfer with any other.. so in theory (and actuality!) 5 or so could fire at the same time.. and if a computer figures out.. that character in the third space is going to be a A, it then checks the rest of the belt, and sees if any other letter is perfectly lined up.. and chances are one or more is... so a line might get printed like this

T     i              u        r                   .      
and then as the belt moved.. it would add more charactors
Th   ui    r w  f x ju     o  r   e    y b  w  d  .     
and more
The quic  brow  fox jum e  ov r t e la y b own do .     

and finaly you'd have

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy brown dog.

is sounds like a stupid way to work, but the belt went round at 30 or more revolutions a minute, and each revolution had 5 sets of the alphabet, and a whole line could be printed in under 4 revolutions.. so you could get
10 lines in a minute! and of course, the belt was changable, and you could change fonts, too..
but all those hammers hitting was noisy! so these printers are never in a regualar work area!

and there is a brief history of typewriter type printers.. that made it possible for any one to create complex documents, with mixed font, with out needing a special typesetter.. it could be done by idiots like me!

i help my son do a paper, and the main text was 12 point font, but all the descriptions for the diagrams (and there were about 20,) was in size 10 font. (he did all the thinking part of the paper.) when it was all done, it looked great.. it still like typewritten.. but not quite.. the different font size made a big difference.