> Can you help me with a word? This a noun for someone who
> innocently joins a group, comes to a party, sits at a
> meeting--whatever--and within minutes has everyone at each other's
> throats. It may be based on a mythical beast or malevolent force.
> The effect is pernicious, malefic, and usually completely innocent on
> the part of the individual who usually sees him- or herself as only
> trying to be 'helpful' and frequently comes out of the situation
> feeling hurt or unappreciated.
>
>
>
>

Dear yomintz: For a coinage, how about a combination of "caca-" and "catalyst"

Cacacatalyst. or cacocatalyst

Edit replaced v with y

That's yomintz to you, Bill.

Dear belligerentyouth: I have macular degeneration, and even with extra magnification,
I was barely able to see the "tail" on the "y" because underline obscured it.
My apologies to yomintz

Edit: changed "fishonabike" to "belligerent youth"

To stir up trouble is to cause general discontentment, and some of our Kiwis might lovingly call a person who does this a shit-stirrer. Otherwise you have your mischief-maker, trouble-maker, or incendiary (normally meaning an arsonist). These all mean someone who agitates (or inflames:-) factions and/or promotes quarrels. That's pretty close. That is to say, an 'incendiary' doesn't necessaryily willfully promote unrest, as far as I know.
Many comparisons to animals are popular for the kind of people you're talking about - a snake in the grass, or a viper, serpent; these are pretty general, but nonetheless have an exact meaning when used in context.
I'm sure there is some term from Greek or Roman mythology if that's what you're looking for, I just don't know it. Only a harpy, Furies, or a Siren come to mind, none of which fit too well. That's the best I can do.

Hey by, I think yomintz is looking for a noun that incorporates what you've suggested, but without the malice aforethought - someone who has this ill effect unintentionally, perhaps. "Well-meaning snake-in-the-grass" doesn't have quite the right ring to it....Isn't yomintz looking for a noun to describe someone who brings strife but doesn't realize it, and is then surprised and hurt by the reaction he causes? Bill's attempt with "catalyst" is good, but I think there must be a word or phrase that's in more common use....Perhaps something incorporating the word "innocent"?

PS to Bill: I DON'T have macular degeneration and I also thought, at first, that the handle was "vomintz"!

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

This isn't what yomintz is looking for, but it is a word that came to mind:

party-pooper

Ball regards,
WordWaltzer Hey, a ball is as close as I could get to a party with the requisite letter "b" and it worked well with the "w" for waltz. So be a party-pooper and shoot me!

Hmmm... we had one of those on this board for many months.

How about "sociopath," or is that a wee bit too strong?

EDIT:

I realize now that my suggestion is not germane. The supposition is that the perpetrator had no motive, unlike the situation previously seen on this board.

Dear fishonabike

Oops, weren't me, Bill! Don't know if I should be honoured or dismayed at being seen as a belligerentyouth. Honoured, I think, looking at the "youth" part.

I'm almost positive yomintz is correct in thinking there is a specific term for someone who gets everybody at everybody else's throats without meaning to do so. I also think it is a mythical term... or maybe biblical.

Ah! Is it a Jonah? That's more someone who brings bad luck to all around them, but it's certainly in the right direction.

Fisk

> Jonah

I almost wrote of poor Jonah too, who when refusing to become a prophet was washed off his boat and out to sea, only to be swallowed by a whale, and finally later vomited (sic - literally) out to safety. I couldn't see that being what our friend was looking for though, so I scratched that idea. As you said though Fisk - the right direction:-)

Perhaps there is a medical name (beides side-effect) for unintentional negative effects caused by a drug that would be useful....
[clutching at straws]

such a person is a bane, a pest, a bête noire, a bugbear, a curse... and speaking of a curse, could be personified (so to speak) by Joe Bfstplk, the Al Capp cartoon character who walked around with a storm cloud over his head and was a total jinx but otherwise was pretty likable.

The epithet that springs to my mind is, "pillock."

A sociallydestructive person is an illwind, because it's an ill wind that brings nobody any good.

A sociallydestructive person is an illwind

Ahem. Not to be confused with a wordwind, Dr. Bill.

I also think it is a mythical term... or maybe biblical.

When I have time, I'll have a look through my Facts on File Dictionary of Classical, Biblical, and Literary Allusions and see what I can find....but don't have time at the moment, should be heading off for bed, dammitall, what am I doing here AGAIN?!

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

plonker or dipstick are good words for hapless mayhem magnets ( thinking rodney trotter here)

> I'll have a look through my Facts on File Dictionary of Classical, Biblical, and Literary Allusions

Please do, MG, you might find what I'm trying to think of.
I like tsuwm's options; a bête noire is a little fav. of mine (sic).
I was lying round reading last night and it occured to me there there is probably a classical literary character that fits this description perfectly. I'm no expert on Greek lit. but I'm sure there's a Euripidean play that deals with this. Perhaps there is a character who fits this context? What about Deianeira? ...she certainly causes disaster unwittingly, when her desire to protect her marriage leads to Herakles' death, and her suicide. I don't know all those plays well enough to round down too well. Maybe someone else can. You'd think that in all the tragedies that Euripides or Aeschylus, or one of those blokes wrote, that they would have to have dealt with this topic.

plonker or dipstick are good words for hapless mayhem magnets

Only thing is that neither specifies someone who brings bad things to others, dody, though certainly the unintentional aspect is there.

However, I think the term "mayhem magnet" is brilliant, and should be included in the world-famous AWADictionary

How 'bout Frankenstein?..."I only wanted to be friends with the girl, but she just kept screaming."

I can't for the life of me remember title or author of a story I read once about a lorry driver that couldn't escape the rain. That meant he could never stay long in one place because then there would be floods. Could it be Douglas Adams? This is now driving me nuts, TYVM! Admittedly, it's a short drive!

Connie,
I'm not familiar with the story, but it sounds an awful lot like something Rod Serling would have conceived. ... begin 'Twilight Zone' theme music...

Connie - you are dead right about it being Douglas Adams - can't remember which book of the trilogy he appeared in - the fifth, I think (Mostly Harmless)

The lorry driver was, in fact and unbeknownst to himself, a rain god. He eventually realised his potential and made a fortune selling his services to third-world countries stricken with drought.


EDIT
No - it isn't Mostly Harmless - try Goodbye - and thanks for all the fish, which is the fourth book.

a lorry driver that couldn't escape the rain

I think it was Douglas Adams, and one of the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy books, Connie
(calling Max Quordlepleen!)
...though I may just be confusing it with another story where a lorry driver (or someone) is constantly being bugged () by flies. It turns out he is The Lord Of The Flies (but not William Golding's pig-on-a-stick) and didn't know it.

Ah! Is the other one a Terry Pratchett story? Quite close idea, though, as the lorry driver, it turns out, is a Rain God...

Edit: Rhuby beat me to the draw there!

So Long and Thanks For All The Fish was my first instinct. My mother always told me to trust my instincts 'cause I have good ones!

Well, now, the rain god of this story is a bit like what is being talked about here, I think. I have a brosin that has that unhappy tendency of causing discord wherever he roams. It isn't intentional on his part and the discord is never against him. He has other qualities that have prompted us to call him many things, none of which would apply to this theme. Maybe we should call him Erismus. Nonetheless, he finds himself constantly on the move, running from the discord that surrounds him. Maybe he should apply for Jerry Springer's job?

Maybe he should apply for Jerry Springer's job?

Would he want Jerry Springer's job? Who'd want Jerry Springer's job? I've caught a few minutes of it in my lifetime and those few minutes left me feeling like giving up on the human race.

Hey! Maybe the noun for a socially destructive person could be a "jerryspringer"! Consuelo, I think you've done it again!

Battle regards,
WordWarrior

How about eristor? Eris was the Greek goddess of discord.

http://www.messagenet.com/myths/bios/eris.html

WW, I was saying that perhaps he should apply for J. Springer's job so that he could earn a living from his natural talent. This same talent makes it quite difficult for him to earn a living in the "normal" way, much like the lorry-driving Rain God of Douglas Adams' story.

Consuelo:

I was joking. It was a joke: read: JOKE.

Sheesh! Terrible thing to have people think you're being serious when you're not.

Off to polish up my style,
WordWorst

How about eristor?

Or eristorator? He's a real eristorator, that one...never means any harm, but somehow his presence always rustles a fuss up.

So Long and Thanks For All The Fish was my first instinct. My mother always told me to trust my instincts 'cause I have good ones

Well, your mother is dead right, Connie!
Received word from On High , and the lorry driver's name is Rob McKenna.

Here's a relevant (if slightly strange) link:
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/9846/strange/rainmake.html

I'm still sure there is a term for an unwitting sower of social discord. Maybe I dreamt it.

not sure but i think it was in the long dark teatime of the souls
edit failed to read half this thread properly, apologies

In reply to:

---

not sure but i think it was in the long dark teatime of the souls

---

I have it on good authority that it comes from "So long, and thanks for all the fish"

Try The Joys of Yiddish by the other Rosten. There's a definition in there. tsuris maybe? My copy is packed away somewhere (I hope that I didn't lend it to an uncircumcised Philistine who committed the unpardonable sin of not returning a lent-out book.)

Or is tsuris the type of trouble? Gosh, getting old has its downside. But beats the hell out of the alternative.

is a Yiddish word for trouble or woe. So a person who inflicts same might be a tsurist?

So a person who inflicts same might be a tsurist? Only if they're not in their home town!

Welcome to you, yomintz (I also thought the first letter was v.) Hope somebody comes up with the right term--this is an interesting concept.

How 'bout Frankenstein?

WO'N, close but no cigar. Found this in my dic. of class. all. etc:

...The monster, who in the course of time has usurped the name of his creator, initially yearns for human sympathy. Rejected, he turns on his maker and, destroying everyone he loves, hounds him to his death. Symbolically, the creation that turns on its creator.

still searching through dictionary, hoping for help....think we are looking for something like "a Cassandra" or similar (but NOT Cassandra - poor lass, she had rather different troubles)

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

I wonder if "Lancelot" is close?

Although he generally represents the very model of knightly chivalry, his adulterous love for Guinevere tarnishes his image somewhat. It contributed to the failure of his quest for the Holy Grail, the collapse of the fellowship of the Round Table, and the death of Arthur.

Mmm. Not quite right. I'll keep looking....

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

feels a little closer, this, but still not quite right:

Parsifal....a "pure fool," some guileless and innocent knight....

Ever onward....

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Pickwick. ...Mr Pickwick was in the habit of using highly insulting language in a completely unmeaning and harmless way - hence the phrase "in a Pickwickian sense" is descriptive of word usage that departs from the sense commonly understood.

Dammit, that's not it either. All these seem to contain elements of what we're after, but none of them is quite right.

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. ...Not really important enough to be evil but too foolish to be good...

Maybe if we combined all these names...!

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Well I bin all thru that damn Dictionary of Classical, Biblical, and Literary Allusions, with no success. The above entries are the best I can offer. This is bluddy frustrating! it's on the tip of my brain but I just can't get it....

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Good shot there, TEd. I'm sure I have heard a Yiddish word for what we're looking for, but it isn't coming to me. Need to consult some Yiddish dictionaries or phrase-books. The only English words that come to mind are 'party pooper', 'spoilsport' and 'marfeast', none of which is really it.

In my youth, someone who was always stirring up trouble just for the fun of it was called an 'agitator', but this implies some degree of maleficence, although some agitators I have known did it as a sort of practical joke, like a lot of practical jokesters who have no common sense and really hurt people.

I bin all thru that damn Dictionary of Classical, Biblical, and Literary Allusions, with no success

Well, Bravo for trying, MG - and commiserations..

Maybe we're all imagining there is a term, just because there so clearly should be?

mendacitor?

I'm sure I have heard a Yiddish word for what we're looking for...

"Nebbish" sprang instantly to mind, but I looked it up and it means "a timid or ineffectual person."

Back to the drawing board....

Any Yiddish speakers here able to help out? seems a likely source for such a word! (rich language an' all) I keep thinking, though, that it may well be a classical or literary allusion (probably not Biblical). Maybe I should have another go through that dictionary (shudder!).

Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.

Well, our friend who started the thread hasn't made any further comments so either he is completely unhappy with the results - or ... well in fact, that's probably it, isn't it.

Let me say that a lot of contenders I looked at for this word - which clearly should exist - are colloquial. As such, they can be interpreted in many ways, and don’t have the distinct meaning that was seemingly desired. One example of this is a ‘booby’. This word certainly fits the meaning but might be thought to mean a myriad of other things too.
Finally, let me say the German hasn’t failed me on this one, with the not entirely unambiguous, but none the less very useful word – der Tölpel – it beats English hands down. What do dictionaries (our Holy Grail – yeah right!) offer for this in English? You’re not going to like this – it’s one of those ‘there is no word for this really, so we’ll include a lot of them’ kind of things. Here is a list of *my over all favourite candidates in an attempt to wrap things up:

Baboon
Booby
Klutz
Dolt
Chawbacon
Bungler
Gawk
Jay
Looby
Lubber
Muff
Yokel
Fool
Larrikin


If you can’t find one in there you like and want to use then we’d better get started on a neologism. PONS – an authority on the German language, has a competition every year to find new words for things and concepts that don’t exist. Surely there something is similar for our poor impecunious English language floating about.

Regards,

baboonedyouth

> Can you help me with a word? This a noun for someone who
> innocently joins a group, comes to a party, sits at a
> meeting--whatever--and within minutes has everyone at each other's
> throats. It may be based on a mythical beast or malevolent force.
> The effect is pernicious, malefic, and usually completely innocent on
> the part of the individual who usually sees him- or herself as only
> trying to be 'helpful' and frequently comes out of the situation
> feeling hurt or unappreciated.

A Frank Spencer?

Gosh, zingo, bellyoungone! Chawbacon was worth reading this whole thread again even though I don't reckon a chawbacon is the socially destructive person sought. That chawbacon just sits on a stump in my brain, chawin' bacon with his mouth open, gazin' at the risin' sun, thinkin' deep thoughts like, "This here's dam good bacon" over and over to the rhythm of his jaws.

Life is good and sweet for chawbacons. You git up, you chaw your bacon, you sit on stumps, think deep bacon-flavored thoughts, you shoot a possum, you drink moonshine, and you pass out cold till the next morning.

Thanks for that little bite of simplicity, bellyouth.

Bacon regards,
WoodsWanderer

a competition every year to find new words for things and concepts that don’t exist

[innocent e]

Why would you want to make up words for nonexistent things and concepts? How many different terms does one need?

> Why would you want to make up words for nonexistent things and concepts? How many different terms does one need?

There's always one, isn't there!?
Let me restate that:
"PONS has a competition every year to find words for things and concepts that have not yet been labelled."
Happy now?


Rubrick, a "Frank Spencer" is exactly the kind of bloke I was trying to think of but couldn't.
I'm sure that if you said, 'He is a real Frank Spencer!', to pretty much anyone over 20 in England, Oz and NZ then they would know straight away what you're talking about. He's the theatrical epitome of the kind of person we've been discussing, no doubt. Well done my son! You've got my vote for that eponym!

Someone care to enlighten poor benighted USns?

Frank Spencer (played by Michael Crawford) was the main character in the BBC production "Some mothers do 'ave em", as the bumbling eejit who just couldn't ever seem to get anything right.

Here's an episode synopsis for you:

http://www.steve-p.org/sm/SMDAE1.htm

HTH

Rubrick, a "Frank Spencer" is exactly the kind of bloke I was trying to think of but couldn't.
I'm sure that if you said, 'He is a real Frank Spencer!', to pretty much anyone over 20 in England, Oz and NZ then
they would know straight away what you're talking about. He's the theatrical epitome of the kind of person we've
been discussing, no doubt. Well done my son! You've got my vote for that eponym!

Thanks, BY. It was wracking my brains for days....

You git up, you chaw your bacon, you sit on stumps, think deep bacon-flavored thoughts, you shoot a possum, you drink moonshine, and you pass out cold till the next morning

[sigh] Heaven. [longing-e]


Frank Spencer
Hmmm - closest yet, Rube

Still not exactly right, as Frank Spencer wasn't just socially destructive with his good intentions (there was usually a great deal of physical destruction).

But it'll do for me - this has been driving me mad!

...someone who innocently joins a group, comes to a party, sits at a meeting--whatever--and within minutes has everyone at each other's throats

...Any Yiddish speakers here able to help out? seems a likely source for such a word!


I can think of two words that come near but don't quite hit the mark:

-- A dybbik is an evil spirit that inhabits someone's body for a time and does all sorts of mean and nasty things in his/her name, sometimes without being recognized for what it is except for the out-of-character nature of the mean acts. I believe it's Hebrew rather than Yiddish.

-- A kuchleffel (spelling will vary), literally a big cooking spoon, goes around disturbing the status quo ante (cross-thread) and often causing trouble, just because that's what cooking spoons do - stir up the pot and keep things boiling.

Maybe "kuchleffel" is the closest to the orignal query, though it doesn't quite catch the inevitablity of the strife, or perhaps the degree of disruption, either.

How about "provocateur" ... though not necessarily of the "agent" variety?

One whose existence facilitates others getting into trouble.

Some wonderful ideas especially the last one - WELCOME Eyes I Knew -- But help me out here, isn't the described behaviour what is called "passive aggressive?"
Been a long time since my Psych 101 class (1948 precisely!)
Thanks.
Oh! how about "agitant" - a person who causes agitation. (OED)

Though if yomintz will ever see this, I don't know. This is at the beginning of a book a friend suggested I read : "Snow Crash", by Neal Stephenson. (FWIW, it looks as though the book's going to have more social commentary in it than story, but we shall see; I've barely started.) Anyway, on the top of the page where Chapter 1 begins are three dictionary definitions. It's the 3rd one, third def. that is of import here :

VIRUS....[L. virus slimy liquid, poison, offensive odour or taste.] 1. Venom, such as is emitted by a poisonous animal. 2. Path: a. A morbid principle or poisonous substance produced in the body as the result of some disease, esp. one capable of being introduced into other persons or animals by inoculations or otherwise and of developing the same disease in them... 3. fig A moral or intellectual poison, or poisonous influence.
---The Oxford English Dictionary

Snow Crash had some story, but it was a bit hokey. Ctyptonomicon, by the same author, is a much more thoughtful, involving book with a far more compelling set of story lines (WWII and modern day), and some very cool discussion of codes and cryptography.

I love that book, Hyla, and your cryptic rendering of its title.

I agree with wow. "Passive aggressive" describes the behavior of someone on the sidelines fomenting disturbances.

I also like the 3rd meaning of "virus" that Jackie posted.

Not as good, but in the general category--and certainly one who could manifest negative behaviors either passively or aggressively--is the spoilsport. Have we mentioned the spoilsport yet in this thread? It's not really what we're looking for, but I think it at least belongs in the discussion to be thrown away as, "No, that's not it at all!"

But passive aggressive? Yes, that's the behavior, by jingo! A passive aggressive virus! And there's no vaccine for viruses, right, Dr. Bill?

your cryptic rendering of its title.

I looked and looked at that word to be sure it was spelled right.

But in the end, I did misspell Stypticonimon, a fascinating history of after-shave treatments.

Stypticonimon, a fascinating history of after-shave treatments.
Ohmigawd--rolling! Hope you use electric!

And there's no vaccine for viruses, right

Not zactly, WW. There are vaccines for some viruses, just not for all viruses. In fact, vaccines are made from viruses. IIR, there are live-virus vaccines, which use a weakened strain of the virus to cause the body to produce antibodies, and killed-virus vaccines, which use dead viruses to do the same. You may be thinking of the fact that there are no antibiotics for viruses. None of the so-called wonder drugs are effective against viruses, which is why we shouldn't insist the doctor give us something for a bad cold - doesn't do any good and contributes to the development of antibiotic-resistant organisms. [/my medical knowledge]

Thanks, NancyK, for my little medical lesson. I stand corrected and welcomingly so! You read me perfectly--I had heard that you shouldn't ask for an anti-biotic for viruses, and I made the incorrect leap to include vaccines also.

Live and learn,
WW

Every time I come back to this thread I think the word we are looking for is pariah. Now, I know full well that the dictionary definition of this word is simply "outcast", but get a nagging feeling I've seen it used to mean exactly what we're trying to track down: someone who is unwelcome because of an unconscious tendency to create social disorder.

Does anyone else share this feeling?

I'm not sure, Shona, but here's what Atomica has to say:
pa·ri·ah (pə-rī'ə)
n.
1. A social outcast: “Shortly Tom came upon the juvenile pariah of the village, Huckleberry Finn, son of the town drunkard” (Mark Twain).
2. An Untouchable.
[Tamil paṛaiyar, pl. of paṛaiyan, pariah caste, from paṛai, festival drum.]

WORD HISTORY The word pariah, which can be used for anyone who is a social outcast, independent of social position, recalls a much more rigid social system, which made only certain people pariahs. The caste system of India placed pariahs, also known as Untouchables, very low in society. The word pariah, which we have extended in meaning, came into English from Tamil paṛaiyar, the plural of paṛaiyan, the caste name, which literally means “(hereditary) drummer” and comes from the word paṛai, the name of a drum used at certain festivals. The word is first recorded in English in 1613. Its use in English and its extension in meaning probably owe much to the long period of British rule in India.


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The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition