Greetings,
The recent note about the utility of Italian words in English has reminded me of a paradox: in using these 'loan words' (as I believe is the technical term) they have english pronunciation, eg 'gusto' or 'traits' are not pronounced 'gooosto' or 'tray', and if you try it no one will understand you (unless you move in those circles where Petrarchean sonnets are discussed). I am sure that even 'risorgimento' can be englished, though most users of this word would prefer the proper pronunciation.
Is this a general rule, that common loan words are Englished?
TomH
Off the top of my head, I would say it probably depends on who uses the word, how long it's been hanging around in English, and how predictable the foreign pronunciation is from the spelling.
A word like risorgimento is pretty firmly tied to its Italian origin and is rarely used in non-Italian contexts. This would be helpful in keeping it close to the original pronunciation. Gusto on the other hand is much less closely tied to Italian contexts and its pronunciation has been anglicised.
Schadenfreude is probably a relatively recent import (I'm open to correction on this) and so has been much less anglicised than the pronunciation of other German loan words. I don't know German so I can't give definite examples from that language, but think how far compound (= enclosed place) has wandered from kampong .
I'm not sure mispronounced is a good heading for this thread. After all once English has adopted a word, why should we keep to its foreign pronunciation? Think of how quixotic and Quixote are drifting apart in their pronunciation because some people want to show off their familiarity with the Spanish pronunciation for Quixote. Pure snobbery in other words.
Bingley
Tom,
Good to have you. I think you've brought up a question to
which there is no "right" answer (she said, being rather tired of rules at the moment). This one also reminds me of
chaise longue becoming chase lounge.
the snobbery point is an important issue.
with a word like "risorgimento", how long can you rrrroll the rs in company of people who don't without looking like a complete ponce?
>how long can you rrrroll the rs
Reminds me of a girl I knew in college. She could roll her rs with the best of them.
Ted PLOPS firmly into the gutter
Rrrright, William, I'll bite. What's a ponce?
Looks like TEd made a pun this time that all the non-Americans will understand.
Ponce is slang for a pimp. Hence a person with high ideas of his own self-worth who in actual fact just makes himself ridiculous.
Incidentally, is there such a thing as a female pimp?
Bingley
Whoa, that Atlantic crossing is definitely showing!
Pimp has a very different meaning in the States!!
Not necessarily related to being pompous, though I suppose
any of them could be. A female pimp is called a madam.
One of them in California became notorious a few years ago,
when some famous young actors were caught soliciting the
illegal service she was providing.
> Pimp has a very different meaning in the States!!
Over here in th UK, a pimp is someone (usually a man) who solicits custom for a prostitute (usually a woman) and takes a portion of her (his!) earnings - usually a very large portion. He will also protect his investment by making sure, a) that no-one else steals his partner's custom and b) that she comes to no harm from kinky or psychopathic customers. He may also arrange robbery of customers.
A ponce is someone who lives on the immoral earnings of a woman without doing anything much for it. A parasite, in fact. I have never heard of this soubriquet being applied to a woman, whereas pimp, whilst usually associated with males, does not appear to be inherently gender specific.
I have a perfectly respectable reason for having all of this information !!!
my understanding was that 'poncey' also had the senses of 1) effeminate 2) snobby, ostentatious; I seem to remember the M. Python lads using it in this fashion.
>'poncey' also had the senses of 1) effeminate 2) snobby, ostentatious
I agree that the word does have the sense of "ostentatious", probably because of the stereotype of a ponce wearing flash apparel and adornments. (Like most stereotypes, it is not particularly true - all but one of the ponces I have known were fairly non-descript, ordinary sort of fellows - if a bit sad.) The undoubted connotation of effeminacy possible stems from this, as well. I am not aware of snobbishness being connected, though. I cannot see any reason why a ponce should be a snob _because_ he is a ponce. Any snobbism would surely be rooted in other aspects of his character and background?? However, some of the girls that they lived on were incredibly snobbish - I must write a treatise on the class-structure of harlotry, some day - and maybe it was catching? Plenty of other things to do with the trade were - - -
(Hey!! I've just inadvertantly used the spell-checker - isn't it a hoot?? snobbishness comes out as "Snodgrass" !)
Well, hello, RhubarbCommander, and what a fascinating life you must have led. Please tell us more ...
No sooner had I put "An exaltation of larks" away after posting in another thread, than I'm at it again! Here's a couple or three relevant collective nouns for this thread:
- a herd of harlots
- a mews of cathouses
- a concatenation of orgiasts.
Sorry, Jackie, I couldn't find one for 'gutters' but I'll keep trying.
A herd of harlots has been expressed as:
A volume of trollops
An anthology of pros
>and what a fascinating life you must have led. Please tell us more ...
I reiterate - my knowledge has all come from respectable and legitimate research - all financed from public sources.
>> A ponce is someone who lives on the immoral earnings of a woman without doing anything much for it. A parasite, in fact.
With a nod to this week's theme: Something akin to a gigolo, then (though in a gigolo's case, the woman's earnings need not be "immoral").
A palette of drabs
A glut of sluts
A wind of wenches (this is reaching a little bit, I admit). Long i.
A portfolio of scarlet letters
A sweep of streetwalkers
A cart of baggage
A quorum of queans
A trill of trulls
and (my favorite)
A flourish of strumpets
>Sorry, Jackie, I couldn't find one for 'gutters'
curb your glut of gutters
-ron obvious
Annastrophic,
you take a day off and look what happens!
i meant a ponce to be someone who, similar to what tsuwm said, is affecting an upper class style and knowledge, usually in a way that separates them from the "great unwashed".
i remember asking for a record of prokofiev's "visions fugitives" when i was 16. the guy in the shop said "oh! you mean 'veeseeong fyujiteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeef?" this man was, and no doubt still is, a ponce.
william, I'm laughing as I type.
Thanks for that very vivid definition of the "other" meaning of ponce. Now, if I could just come up with a synonym for it in American....I'm sure one of my compatriots will come to the rescue.
How is a ponce different from a parvenu (one of my favorite words that is enhanced with more meaning each day)?
parvenu carries with it the nuance of being newly rich or powerful (
nouveau riche), and we have 'parvenue' for a woman who is a parvenu.
I have seen in Awad the Italian word "omerta" written in this way. I wanted just to add a comment about the fact that the American keyboard force us to avoid the accents - not just Italian people, I received e-mails in French , also missing the correct accents.
But omerta needs strongly an accent on the last "a", so that we supply with an apostrophe: omerta'.
Otherwise we would pronounce it as omErta - with the tonic accent on the e.
How do you pronounce it?
Ciao
Emanuela
Grazie, emanuela, for that information. Indeed, a posthumous book by Mario Puzo (of "Godfather" fame) was recently released. Its title is "Omerta," without the accent on the a. I had no idea how to pronounce it until I read your post.
n.b.: diacriticals are easy on Mac keyboards. Omertá
>>the "other" meaning of ponce...a synonym for it in American....
How about social climber? Slang would be a wanna-be.
>a synonym for the other meaning of ponce
[snob] snoot
Those suggestions don't convery the "effete" quality of ponce, if I've understood the term correctly.... hmmm... perhaps we don't have a true equivalent in American, and haven't borrowed "ponce", because there's no need
does anyone remember the show "lost in space"?
dr. smith was a ponce (amongst other things).
>>Those suggestions don't convery the "effete" quality of ponce
Got it, Anna! "Priss". Though the noun is less commonly used than the adjective.
Sure, william, I remember Lost in Space! "Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!" (robot arms waving wildly)
Barney Fife was quite prissy as well, though without financial aspirations. Also Niles, and Frazier to some extent. And one of The Odd Couple--I think Felix.
Is Michael Quinlon one of our members? He discusses poncey in the 2 Sept. issue of the worldwide newsletter which you can read here:
http:// listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0009a&L=worldwidewords&D=1&F=&S=&P=97 Bingley