. - 08/20/00 06:27 AM
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/20/00 11:38 AM
Well, Max, you have lost me entirely. I have no idea what NG or TINW is. As for guidelines to coining words--if
anyone has actually sat down and made a list, then I think that, like whoever it was that extrapolated an entire
Klingon language from a few grunts on Star Trek, he or she
just doesn't have enough to do.
anyone has actually sat down and made a list, then I think that, like whoever it was that extrapolated an entire
Klingon language from a few grunts on Star Trek, he or she
just doesn't have enough to do.
. - 08/20/00 11:56 AM
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/20/00 12:03 PM
>I have no idea what NG or TINW is<
Jackie, I've never heard them before either.
My guess is that they stand for 'network group' and 'those in (the) network' respectively. I'm working from context.
Which brings me to the only reasonable guideline I can think of - within context, it should be possible to work out (more or less) what the new coining means. (Note I'm thinking of everyday words here, rather than scientific etc.)
Which reminds me of Jabberwocky, which is of course always quoted in discussions on coining words.
'Twas brillig and the slithy tove
did gyre and gimble in the wabe.
All mimsy were the borogroves
and the mome raths outgrabe.
I have a question - what part of speech is 'outgrabe'? I have mused about this off and on for years (yes, I know I am a sad individual!) and still cannot decide whether it is an adjective or the past tense of a verb. My gut says 'verb', as in give/gave, but my brain insists that there is no English verb with a 'b' in that position and leaves me unconvinced.
Opinions, anyone?
Jackie, I've never heard them before either.
My guess is that they stand for 'network group' and 'those in (the) network' respectively. I'm working from context.
Which brings me to the only reasonable guideline I can think of - within context, it should be possible to work out (more or less) what the new coining means. (Note I'm thinking of everyday words here, rather than scientific etc.)
Which reminds me of Jabberwocky, which is of course always quoted in discussions on coining words.
'Twas brillig and the slithy tove
did gyre and gimble in the wabe.
All mimsy were the borogroves
and the mome raths outgrabe.
I have a question - what part of speech is 'outgrabe'? I have mused about this off and on for years (yes, I know I am a sad individual!) and still cannot decide whether it is an adjective or the past tense of a verb. My gut says 'verb', as in give/gave, but my brain insists that there is no English verb with a 'b' in that position and leaves me unconvinced.
Opinions, anyone?
. - 08/20/00 12:17 PM
Re: I wield my vorpal sword - 08/20/00 01:01 PM
wait a mim! the mome raths how?? outgrabe!
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/21/00 07:19 AM
How can one ponder Jabberwocky and not be happy go lucky? Maybe I have the ditty too Disneyfied since I frequently think of it with its accompanying tune. I'm talking serious endomusia!
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/21/00 11:04 AM
One way of coining words is to make extender words.
This is a list of extender words (not mine at all), created by all those to whom (who?) I give due acknowledgement.
Computter - to idle away time on line
Skuldruggery- dealing in contaminated narcotics
Puniversity - a really really small university
Servoices - din of the waiters' idle chatter while you wait for someone to take you order
Pregret - remorse about something you have not done yet
Rumbrella - the little paper parasol decorating a tropical cocktail
Sneasoning - heavy dose of pepper
Barithimetic - figuring out who owes what for drinks
Sindex - list of ones vices
This is a list of extender words (not mine at all), created by all those to whom (who?) I give due acknowledgement.
Computter - to idle away time on line
Skuldruggery- dealing in contaminated narcotics
Puniversity - a really really small university
Servoices - din of the waiters' idle chatter while you wait for someone to take you order
Pregret - remorse about something you have not done yet
Rumbrella - the little paper parasol decorating a tropical cocktail
Sneasoning - heavy dose of pepper
Barithimetic - figuring out who owes what for drinks
Sindex - list of ones vices
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/22/00 10:07 AM
>>'Twas brillig and the slithy tove
did gyre and gimble in the wabe.
All mimsy were the borogroves
and the mome raths outgrabe.
I have a question - what part of speech is 'outgrabe'?
Speaking of not having enough to do, she said ironically, pouncing on this eagerly...
I've just spent several minutes pondering, and my opinion is
that outgrabe is an adjective, because it is "obvious" that mimsy is an adjective, and thus the sentence would be balanced. Whatever a tove is, it gyred and gimbled, which are "obviously" verbs. Therefore it makes sense to me that
there would be two adjectives in the next sentence: the
borogroves were mimsy, and the mome raths were outgrabe.
I do have quite enough to do, but chose to have glorious fun with this instead!
did gyre and gimble in the wabe.
All mimsy were the borogroves
and the mome raths outgrabe.
I have a question - what part of speech is 'outgrabe'?
Speaking of not having enough to do, she said ironically, pouncing on this eagerly...
I've just spent several minutes pondering, and my opinion is
that outgrabe is an adjective, because it is "obvious" that mimsy is an adjective, and thus the sentence would be balanced. Whatever a tove is, it gyred and gimbled, which are "obviously" verbs. Therefore it makes sense to me that
there would be two adjectives in the next sentence: the
borogroves were mimsy, and the mome raths were outgrabe.
I do have quite enough to do, but chose to have glorious fun with this instead!
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/22/00 11:51 AM
Brillig, Jackie!
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/22/00 12:09 PM
>>Brillig, Jackie!
Now, the question is: should I be outraged or say thank you?
Now, the question is: should I be outraged or say thank you?
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/22/00 09:15 PM
>>Brillig, Jackie!
>> Now, the question is: should I be outraged or say thank you?
Neither. You should be outgrabe.
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/23/00 04:24 AM
In reply to:>>Brillig, Jackie!
>> Now, the question is: should I be outraged or say thank you?
Neither. You should be outgrabe.
while gyring and gimbling in the wabe.
Bingley
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/23/00 04:49 AM
On not having enough to do:
The author of the most famous invented words (eg 'chortle') in our language also had not enough to do, and he came up with two immortal works of literature, the Alice books.
Is not 'outgrabe' a past participle, so the mom raths have finished 'outgrabing' or whatever? Incidentally 'rath' is irish for an old fort, perhaps where these beasts live.
TomH
The author of the most famous invented words (eg 'chortle') in our language also had not enough to do, and he came up with two immortal works of literature, the Alice books.
Is not 'outgrabe' a past participle, so the mom raths have finished 'outgrabing' or whatever? Incidentally 'rath' is irish for an old fort, perhaps where these beasts live.
TomH
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/23/00 07:54 AM
Since Max began this thread I have been unable to stop myself from creating words for any and everything that comes my way. Some of the words I have come up with - braichy, kielterate, wraid, and droozy. I love them. They are nonsense with a veneer of seriousness.
I learned while looking for a word if you concentrate on the word you have inordinate difficulty, where as if you concentrate on what you are trying to describe the word will come to you - and often it is a word that surprises you with its uniqueness.
I had wanted a word for rainy sky that flickered continuously like a tube light and roared like a train engine. I have come up with rumblickering or with onomatopoeic effect "a brumblickering sky". Makes sense? Of course not...
But the idea is to see what words one can come up with and not to use the words to communicate - that won't work …
I learned while looking for a word if you concentrate on the word you have inordinate difficulty, where as if you concentrate on what you are trying to describe the word will come to you - and often it is a word that surprises you with its uniqueness.
I had wanted a word for rainy sky that flickered continuously like a tube light and roared like a train engine. I have come up with rumblickering or with onomatopoeic effect "a brumblickering sky". Makes sense? Of course not...
But the idea is to see what words one can come up with and not to use the words to communicate - that won't work …
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/23/00 12:30 PM
>a brumblickering sky
I find this really poetic. Why should it make sense, if it makes feel?
I find this really poetic. Why should it make sense, if it makes feel?
Outgrabe - 08/23/00 12:32 PM
>I have a question - what part of speech is 'outgrabe'?
I have somewhere the Annotated Alice, but my library is so poorly organized (translated: I've got 50 damned boxes of books still in the garage because there's no room in the house, so I went searching in Google. Sure enough, this is what I seemed to remember, from http://home.earthlink.net/~lfdean/carroll/jabberwock.html:
Before incorporating "Jabberwocky" into Looking-Glass, however, Carroll apparently changed his mind as to what some of his words should mean, for when Alice discusses the poem with Humpty Dumpty later in the book, he gives somewhat different interpretations.
"That's enough to begin with," Humpty Dumpty interrupted: "there are plenty of hard words there. 'Brillig' means four o' clock in the afternoon--the time when you begin broiling things for dinner."
"That'll do very well," said Alice: "and 'slithy'?"
"Well, 'slithy' means 'lithe and slimy,' 'Lithe' is the same as 'active.' You see it's like a portmanteau--there are two meanings packed up into one word."
This is the first of several portmanteaus that Carroll used in "Jabberwocky."
"I see it now," Alice remarked thoughtfully: "and what are 'toves'?"
"Well, 'toves' are something like badgers--they're something like lizards--and they're something like corkscrews."
"They must be very curious-looking creatures."
"They are that," said Humpty Dumpty: "also they make their nests under sundials--also they live on cheese."
"And what's to 'gyre' and to 'gimble'?"
"To 'gyre' is to go round and round like a gyroscope. To 'gimble' is to make holes like a gimlet."
"And 'the wabe' is the grass-plot round a sun-dial, I suppose?" said Alice, surprised at her own ingenuity.
"Of course it is. It's called 'wabe,' you know, because it goes a long way before it, and long way behind it--"
"And a long way beyond it on each side," Alice added.
"Exactly so. Well then,'mimsy' is 'flimsy and miserable' (there's another portmanteau for you). And a 'borogove' is a thin shabby-looking bird with its feathers sticking out all round--something like a live mop."
"And then 'mome raths'?" said Alice. "I'm afraid I'm giving you a great deal of trouble."
"Well, a 'rath'is a sort of green pig: but 'mome' I'm not certain about. I think it's short for 'from home'--meaning that they'd lost their way, you know."
"And what does 'outgrabe' mean?"
"Well, 'outgrabing' is something between bellowing and whistling, with a kind of sneeze in the middle: however, you'll hear it done, maybe--down in the wood yonder--and, when you've once heard it, you'll be quite content" (Carroll The Annotated Alice 270-2).
Unfortuantely, this is where Humpty Dumpty, and Carroll, ends his interpretation. We can, however, by means of several methods determine what Carroll is likely to have meant by most of his nonsense words. The first of these methods is to consider what Carroll told confused readers.
For example, in 1877 he wrote to Maud Standen, one of his child-friends, that "uffish" suggested to him "a state of mind when the voice is gruffish, the manner roughish and the temper huffish" (Gardner The Annotated Alice 196). In the same letter he points out that "burble" can be created in the following manner: "If you take the three verbs 'bleat 'murmur,' and warble,'and select the bits I have underlined, it certainly makes 'burble': though I am afraid I can't distinctly remember having made it in that way" (Gardner The Annotated Alice 196). Carroll also reused eight of the nonsense words for "Jabberwocky" in his nonsense poem "The Hunting of the Snark." One of these words, "frumious," is explained in the preface.
... take the two words "fuming" and "furious." Make up your mind that you will say both words, but leave it unsettled which you will say first. Now open your mouth and speak. If your thoughts incline ever so little towards "fuming," you will say "fuming-furious"; if they turn, by even a hair's breadth, towards "furious," you will say "furious-fuming"; but if you have the rarest of gifts, a perfectly balanced mind, you will say "frumious" (Gardner The Annotated Alice 195).
Several of Carroll's words have become so much a part of our language that they can be found in the Oxford English Dictionary. In addition to several of the words defined by Humpty Dumpty, these include "galumph," which is defined as a combination of "gallop" and "triumphant" and means "to march on exultantly with irregular bounding movements" (Gardner The Annotated Alice 196), and "chortle" which is defined as a combination of "chuckle" and "snort" (Gardner The Annotated Alice 197). It is fairly safe to assume that these are the definitions that Carroll wanted attached to his words.
I have somewhere the Annotated Alice, but my library is so poorly organized (translated: I've got 50 damned boxes of books still in the garage because there's no room in the house, so I went searching in Google. Sure enough, this is what I seemed to remember, from http://home.earthlink.net/~lfdean/carroll/jabberwock.html:
Before incorporating "Jabberwocky" into Looking-Glass, however, Carroll apparently changed his mind as to what some of his words should mean, for when Alice discusses the poem with Humpty Dumpty later in the book, he gives somewhat different interpretations.
"That's enough to begin with," Humpty Dumpty interrupted: "there are plenty of hard words there. 'Brillig' means four o' clock in the afternoon--the time when you begin broiling things for dinner."
"That'll do very well," said Alice: "and 'slithy'?"
"Well, 'slithy' means 'lithe and slimy,' 'Lithe' is the same as 'active.' You see it's like a portmanteau--there are two meanings packed up into one word."
This is the first of several portmanteaus that Carroll used in "Jabberwocky."
"I see it now," Alice remarked thoughtfully: "and what are 'toves'?"
"Well, 'toves' are something like badgers--they're something like lizards--and they're something like corkscrews."
"They must be very curious-looking creatures."
"They are that," said Humpty Dumpty: "also they make their nests under sundials--also they live on cheese."
"And what's to 'gyre' and to 'gimble'?"
"To 'gyre' is to go round and round like a gyroscope. To 'gimble' is to make holes like a gimlet."
"And 'the wabe' is the grass-plot round a sun-dial, I suppose?" said Alice, surprised at her own ingenuity.
"Of course it is. It's called 'wabe,' you know, because it goes a long way before it, and long way behind it--"
"And a long way beyond it on each side," Alice added.
"Exactly so. Well then,'mimsy' is 'flimsy and miserable' (there's another portmanteau for you). And a 'borogove' is a thin shabby-looking bird with its feathers sticking out all round--something like a live mop."
"And then 'mome raths'?" said Alice. "I'm afraid I'm giving you a great deal of trouble."
"Well, a 'rath'is a sort of green pig: but 'mome' I'm not certain about. I think it's short for 'from home'--meaning that they'd lost their way, you know."
"And what does 'outgrabe' mean?"
"Well, 'outgrabing' is something between bellowing and whistling, with a kind of sneeze in the middle: however, you'll hear it done, maybe--down in the wood yonder--and, when you've once heard it, you'll be quite content" (Carroll The Annotated Alice 270-2).
Unfortuantely, this is where Humpty Dumpty, and Carroll, ends his interpretation. We can, however, by means of several methods determine what Carroll is likely to have meant by most of his nonsense words. The first of these methods is to consider what Carroll told confused readers.
For example, in 1877 he wrote to Maud Standen, one of his child-friends, that "uffish" suggested to him "a state of mind when the voice is gruffish, the manner roughish and the temper huffish" (Gardner The Annotated Alice 196). In the same letter he points out that "burble" can be created in the following manner: "If you take the three verbs 'bleat 'murmur,' and warble,'and select the bits I have underlined, it certainly makes 'burble': though I am afraid I can't distinctly remember having made it in that way" (Gardner The Annotated Alice 196). Carroll also reused eight of the nonsense words for "Jabberwocky" in his nonsense poem "The Hunting of the Snark." One of these words, "frumious," is explained in the preface.
... take the two words "fuming" and "furious." Make up your mind that you will say both words, but leave it unsettled which you will say first. Now open your mouth and speak. If your thoughts incline ever so little towards "fuming," you will say "fuming-furious"; if they turn, by even a hair's breadth, towards "furious," you will say "furious-fuming"; but if you have the rarest of gifts, a perfectly balanced mind, you will say "frumious" (Gardner The Annotated Alice 195).
Several of Carroll's words have become so much a part of our language that they can be found in the Oxford English Dictionary. In addition to several of the words defined by Humpty Dumpty, these include "galumph," which is defined as a combination of "gallop" and "triumphant" and means "to march on exultantly with irregular bounding movements" (Gardner The Annotated Alice 196), and "chortle" which is defined as a combination of "chuckle" and "snort" (Gardner The Annotated Alice 197). It is fairly safe to assume that these are the definitions that Carroll wanted attached to his words.
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/23/00 02:34 PM
>Therefore it makes sense to me that
there would be two adjectives in the next sentence: the
borogroves were mimsy, and the mome raths were outgrabe.
Well, Jackie, I see your point and there is a certain literary elegance in translating it that way.
But surely Lewis Carroll, meticulous in his punctuation, would have put a comma before outgrabe if it were an adjective? In addition, Humpty Dumpty's definitive transliteration of the poem certainly uses the word as a verb " ... something between a bellow and a whistle, with a sneeze thrown in ...," (or something like that - I quote from memory, not having a copy to hand at work.)
So I must to agree with Bridget.
there would be two adjectives in the next sentence: the
borogroves were mimsy, and the mome raths were outgrabe.
Well, Jackie, I see your point and there is a certain literary elegance in translating it that way.
But surely Lewis Carroll, meticulous in his punctuation, would have put a comma before outgrabe if it were an adjective? In addition, Humpty Dumpty's definitive transliteration of the poem certainly uses the word as a verb " ... something between a bellow and a whistle, with a sneeze thrown in ...," (or something like that - I quote from memory, not having a copy to hand at work.)
So I must to agree with Bridget.
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/23/00 05:36 PM
Rhuby--
Right you are, on all counts!
Right you are, on all counts!
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/25/00 05:46 AM
It seems that whenever someone says that they are coining a word, it fails to become a word. I don't understand why Y2K isn't a word; it just designates the year and not a computer problem. Is seems everyone is avoiding saying the year (00) except in print or calling it with century included. "Here, sir, are the statistics from 00, and those are the numbers from 99." What do AWAD talk subscribers say? Y2K was a good example of a word being coined and I doubt it could be traced to one person. Unfortunately, "Y2K" seems to have become synonymous with "Y2K computer date problem/disaster" and not 2000. My point is that I don't think that anyone just decides to coin a word and then find it in usage. Or is that just what "coin a word" means? What's the difference between coining a word and neologisms (word salad)? There appears to be an unspoken dynamic of language at work for a word to come into usage, be it the ease of its use, its singularity, its hip quotient, or its shared secrecy or jargon.
Re: Outgrabe - 08/25/00 08:23 AM
>"Well, 'outgrabing' is something between bellowing and whistling, with a kind of sneeze in the middle: however, you'll hear it done, maybe--down in the wood yonder--and, when you've once heard it, you'll be quite content" (Carroll The Annotated Alice 270-2).<
This still concerns me!
'outgrabing' appears to be the present participle, which would tend to make the infinitive 'outgrabe' and the present tense 'outgrabe'. So why isn't the past tense 'outgrabed'? Or 'outgrobe'?
(I cannot believe Carroll suddenly slipped into the present without noticing....)
This still concerns me!
'outgrabing' appears to be the present participle, which would tend to make the infinitive 'outgrabe' and the present tense 'outgrabe'. So why isn't the past tense 'outgrabed'? Or 'outgrobe'?
(I cannot believe Carroll suddenly slipped into the present without noticing....)
. - 08/25/00 09:18 AM
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 08/26/00 01:22 AM
I don't think that anyone just decides to coin a word and then find it in usage
michaelo, I agree!...UNLESS the person happens to be famous, and is widely quoted in the media. I know fashion
trends get set by the stars, so why not language innovations (and deletions)?
michaelo, I agree!...UNLESS the person happens to be famous, and is widely quoted in the media. I know fashion
trends get set by the stars, so why not language innovations (and deletions)?
Re: Outgrabe - 08/28/00 04:22 AM
In reply to:'outgrabing' appears to be the present participle, which would tend to make the infinitive 'outgrabe' and the present tense 'outgrabe'. So why isn't the past tense 'outgrabed'? Or 'outgrobe'?
Perhaps 'outgrabe' is irregular: outgrabe outgrabe outgrabe.
Bingley
. - 08/28/00 11:28 AM
Re: Outgrabe - 08/29/00 09:41 AM
>Perhaps 'outgrabe' is irregular: outgrabe outgrabe outgrabe.
Not unlike: read read read<
Probably the only solution. But does it change its pronunciation?
Not unlike: read read read<
Probably the only solution. But does it change its pronunciation?
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 09/01/00 02:15 PM
> Whatever a tove is . . .
In our family circle, a "slithy tove" is used as a perjorative term for an unreliable character - most frequent use is probably for pushy retail salespeople (usually men, I have to say) who are oily and obsequious. Uriah Heep (David Copperfield) was definitely a slithy tove.
Incidentally, my family all refer to dark woodland as "tulgy woods," and accuse each other of burbling. (Well - mostly it is my progeny who refer to me, their revered parent in that fashion. I cannot think why.)
In our family circle, a "slithy tove" is used as a perjorative term for an unreliable character - most frequent use is probably for pushy retail salespeople (usually men, I have to say) who are oily and obsequious. Uriah Heep (David Copperfield) was definitely a slithy tove.
Incidentally, my family all refer to dark woodland as "tulgy woods," and accuse each other of burbling. (Well - mostly it is my progeny who refer to me, their revered parent in that fashion. I cannot think why.)
"slithy tove" - 09/05/00 04:31 PM
As the dislexic said, "Nothing's been right in the world since women got the tove."
. - 09/05/00 07:13 PM
Re: "slithy tove" - 09/05/00 07:24 PM
seen on a bumper sticker:
D.A.M. (Mothers Against Dyslexia)
D.A.M. (Mothers Against Dyslexia)
Re: "slithy tove" - 09/05/00 08:05 PM
"Dyslexics of the world, untie"
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 09/07/00 12:40 PM
You might like to look at this BBC Radio 4 programme which discusses coining words and the growth of the English Language. Sorry its too long to summarise but worth saving for a rainy day!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/routesofenglish/storysofar/programme2_1.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/routesofenglish/storysofar/programme2_1.shtml
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 09/07/00 04:32 PM
I don't know if there are any particular guidelines, but I did learn about a year ago that there is a word that describes the practice of coining words.
logodaedaly (10/28/99): The arbitrary or capricious coinage of words.
One of my favorite, personally coined, words is one I use almost daily. When passing coworkers in the hall, one will almost without fail ask "How are you?" (or something along those lines.) I know the question is rhetorical, but I respond anyway. My response is most likely to be "Peacherrific"
logodaedaly (10/28/99): The arbitrary or capricious coinage of words.
One of my favorite, personally coined, words is one I use almost daily. When passing coworkers in the hall, one will almost without fail ask "How are you?" (or something along those lines.) I know the question is rhetorical, but I respond anyway. My response is most likely to be "Peacherrific"
. - 09/07/00 10:12 PM
Re: Guidelines on coining words? - 09/08/00 09:43 AM
"Peacherrific"
Cool!
Cool!