I have been trying to find some info/explanation/history on gotham as in gotham city, New York, etc. Sorry if it sounds trivial or ignorant. Will appreciate an answer. Thank you.

Try the Word Detective at the following address:
http://www.word-detective.com/072999.html#gotham

Bingley

And I had failed to notice that there was a place in Nottinghamshire called Gotham. It must be quite close to Newark (on Trent, not NJ).

And didn't Enid Blyton or somebody like that have stories of the Wise Men of Gotham? I remember reading them as a child, and they certainly weren't about New York.

Bingley

Wow, whole bunch of people putting up their first
(of many more, hopefully) posts!
Welcome, kosacha.
P.S.--To borrow from AnnaS.--care to tell us how you
got your name?

Hi kosacha -- welcome to the board.

Brewer has the sentence "Most nations have some locality renowned for fools -- [Do you want me to go on?] -- and cites the term Gothamites for inhabitants of New York. Washington Irving is quoted as calling New York 'Gotham' in his Salmagundi (1807).

And, for Bingley, the following is cited as a nursery rhyme:
Three wise men of Gotham
Went to sea in a bowl,
If the bowl had been stronger,
My story would have been longer.

And, for jmh:
The village of Gotham in Nottinghamshire was proverbial for the folly of its inhabitants and many tales have been fathered [why not 'mothered'?] on them, one of which is their joining hands round a thorn-bush to shut in a cuckoo.

I'm pretty sure it was the wise men of Gotham who tried to catch the moon by dredging a pond for its reflection.

Of course they weren't AWAD journeymen -- I made it!
Bingley

>>Of course they weren't AWAD journeymen -- I made it!
Bingley<<

Congrats! When's the party?

Thanks for responding! Kosacha is the name of my grandmother's village in Bulgaria. It comes from "kosach" which stands for a person who mows grass. It is _not_ the same as lawn-mower, for there are very few lawns in the American sense in Bulgaria, let alone in Kosacha, and even fewer electrical mowers...How come the masculine gender of kosach was turned into the feminine kosach-a, I don't know.

Thanks so much! At last some explanation. Although I will always have the sinister association from Batman's Gotham city with all the stupid penguins and Danny de Vito running amok... That is what happens when you learn about a country from its movies. Hollywood is the history book of US for the rest of the world, unfortunately.

Thank you! I love the nursery rhyme (although it was for Bingley). Am new in this sort of communication. Don't know how exactly to proceed. Subscribed mostly with the wish to learn more about the English language. Whether I myself can contribute to the conversations, am not too sure...

re: your contributions

but it's the most innocent of questions that get the quirkiest threads started!

>>. Hollywood is the history book of US for the rest of the world, unfortunately.<<
Ohmigawd, say it ain't so!! Though I'm "a-feard" it's the
same thing here. Reminds me of a Star Trek: Next Generation episode, where they happened upon a nightmarish
nightclub that had been set up for a crash survivor, that
was based wholly on the third-rate novel he'd had aboard
his ship. Drove him insane.
Thanks for explaining your name: cool!

Jackie, manis, why should the US be immune? Hollywood garbles everybody else's culture and history.

Bingley

>>Jackie, manis, why should the US be immune? Hollywood garbles everybody else's culture and history.<<
Very true! Ever notice, especially in those about the
Old West, or frontier days, for ex., how clean
everybody's clothes and fingernails are, and how white and
even their teeth are? To say nothing of war movies, or the
ones that have cave-dwelling humans fleeing dinosaurs!

>>Hollywood garbles everybody else's culture and history<<

Hollywood is not the only culprit - film makers in New Zealand have been accused of similar misrepresentation with regard to the Maori culture, as have British film makers in other respects. I'm sure most other countries where films are made are guilty in some way.

Like newspapers, which sell on sensationalism, the film industry seems to thrive on people's craving for the dramatic, regardless of the facts!

p.s. Bingley, please elucidate "manis". I have found many definitions, none of which seem to be appropriate to your post. Thanks.

And they apparently used to shave daily too -- the only people with beards seem to be in comedy roles. I'm also fascinated by the fact that the men, in particular, never seem to roll their sleeves up!

Underwear in Westerns seems to be long johns, so perhaps they thought rolling up two layers just wasn't worth it.

Bingley

>>Hollywood garbles everybody else's culture and history.<<

Isn't history by its very nature garbled? I remember some line about history only being written by winners.

...and if you take that to its extreme, history might be considered as extremely successful propaganda. Look at Richard the Lionheart versus King John.

I was most impressed when visiting Battle Abbey last year. The Battle of Hastings took place in Battle on the only date known by most British children. (Clue - it's not 1492)(Also the most popular number used as an alarm code in British libraries - I'm posting that so they change it!)

The particularly good thing about the interpetation of the site was that it presented the events leading up to the battle from two points of view along two opposite sides of a series of rooms. As the site is so close to France and must have lots of visitors from France I thought it was very interesting and something I would like to see more often.

>Look at Richard the Lionheart versus King John.

Not to mention poor old Richard III - it looks like even Shakespeare was prone to a bit of garbling.

Yes, history is written by the winners, or the losers making a comeback as the case may be. But some facts are facts. The Romans did not wear wristwatches. William Wallace and Edward I died years apart. The telescope was invented by the Dutch long after the time Robin Hood was supposed to have lived.

Bingley

Here's a site where you can read more about the goofs made in the name of entertainment, and worse, how Hollywood rewrites history.

http://us.imdb.com/Top/topgoofs

And I thought everything I saw at the cinema was true!

PS William Wallace was executed on 23rd August 1305, Edward I died on 7th July 1307 but then why let history get in the way of a good ending!

Hi there, I'm from near Nottingham, England & have always maintained that Gotham City originated from Gotham, Nottinghamshire - which my boyfriend found ridiculous! So thanks for the confirmation! For further information, the Gothamites of Nottinghamshire actually pronounce their village name "goat-um" - which seems quainter and less meaty than the Americanised version.

> >Look at Richard the Lionheart versus King John.

Not to mention poor old Richard III - it looks like even Shakespeare was prone to a bit of garbling.


The history of Richard III was originally written by Henry VII's Prime minister so it obviously paints him in a poor light. Shakespeare lived over 100 years later and may have used this biased history as the basis for his play.

I highly recommend the detective novel 'The daughter of time' by Josephine Tey (Penguin books) which deals with the supposed murder's of the two princes by Richard in the tower of London. It's a beautifully crafted novel dealing with some incredibly complex material and will leave you looking at that section of history in a whole new light. I just checked my library server and there are at least ten editions in print since it was first published in 1951. An excellent read!

sorry i have no facts because i know none but i always had the impression that there was some connection with the word gothic. one reason why batman appeals to me more in adulthood than in childhood is that i really enjoy the atmosphere of the cartoons - the shadowy characters amongst the inner city buildings. this may have nothing to do with etymology but maybe it influenced the choice of name.

I'm sure the sound of the name helped - I can't see "Oswaldtwistle" having quite the right ring about it.

I used to live in a place called Rhydycroesau - I haven't noticed many of those around the world.

I'm reading Bill Bryson's book "The Mother Tongue..." at present - he has some amusing things to say about the pronounciation of places like that. How do you pronounce Rhydycroesau?

Welcome aBoard, muffin!

"goat-um"--I like it--sounds faintly aggressive!

William, I see this is your 4th post. But since this is the
first one I've noticed--belated welcome.

I definitely agree about Gotham being gothic!

--------------------------------------------

Jo--I second Oom David's request for a pronunciation--
if it's possible, that is.

How do you pronounce Rhydycroesau?

To begin with you need to know the meaning. I was told that it means "where the water crosses the road". There was a stream by the road, so I imagine that in the past there was a ford there.

I was told to pronounce it as follows:
Rhyd - craed/creed or Rud (like rug) (depending on who you speak to)
y - uh
croe - croy
sau - sigh
There is a small hotel in the village with a a map on their page - http://www.smoothhound.co.uk/hotels/penydyff.html

It's quite near Llanfyllyn - [chlan-vu-thlin] (it took me ages to work out that the place I had heard metioned was the same as the place name I'd seen on the signs.

So if ever you are in the Welsh borders, have a go at reading the signs!

>>So if ever you are in the Welsh borders, have a go at reading the signs!<<

I wouldn't stand a chance!

>>So if ever you are in the Welsh borders, have a go at reading the signs!<<

> I wouldn't stand a chance!

Then have a go at a few Irish ones. Here's a suburb of Dublin. It's called Dún Laoghaire. Or how about the area where I use to live? It's called Seantrabh.

The Irish names for Irish cities:

Cork - Corcaigh
Galway - Gaillimh
Limerick - Luimnigh
Sligo - An Slígeach
Belfast - Béal Feirsde
Wexford - Loch Garman

and last but not least....

Dublin - Báile Átha Clíath!

>>Then have a go at a few Irish ones.<<

Still no chance, 'Brick! Witness my guesses:

Cork - Corcaigh =kor-kay

Galway - Gaillimh =gale-im
Limerick - Luimnigh =loom-nigh (whoa, sounds ominous!)
Sligo - An Slígeach =an slee-gock
Belfast - Béal Feirsde =bee-ul fairst
Wexford - Loch Garman =lock garman (could it really be this
easy?)
and last but not least....

Dublin - Báile Átha Clíath! =bail atha clee-oth

Hope everybody gets a good chuckle out of this. I'm not
going to put what I thought Rhydycroesau might be!

> Cork - Corcaigh =kor-kay

Galway - Gaillimh =gale-im
Limerick - Luimnigh =loom-nigh (whoa, sounds ominous!)
Sligo - An Slígeach =an slee-gock
Belfast - Béal Feirsde =bee-ul fairst
Wexford - Loch Garman =lock garman (could it really be this
easy?)
and last but not least....

Dublin - Báile Átha Clíath! =bail atha clee-oth

Nice try, Jackie! Now for the answers.....

Corcaigh - Cor-kig-k
Gaillimh - Gahl-liv
Luimnigh - Loom-nig-k
An Slígeach - spot on! Slee-gock (or gack, depending on your accent)
Béal Feirsde - Bale fairsh-te
Loch Garman - Okay. This is pronounced the way that it's spelled. Lock Garman
Baile Atha Cliath - Bile-yah aw-ha clee-ah (no points for that one, Jackie....)

and the two earlier ones:

Dún Laoghaire - Doon lair-reh
Seantrabh - Shan-trav