Whence these terms?

I can trace Pooh-Bah back to the character in Gilbert & Sullivan's Mikado (c. 1885), and Pooh Bear back to Winnie the Pooh (c. 1920). But I doubt that the latter came from the former, as their personalities are entirely different. My suspicion is that the share a common, prior source. Does anyone know?

Related, and possible clue: I recall reading that many of the character names in The Mikado were taken from the baby-talk used in British nurseries: e.g., the character Pitti-sing is baby-talk for "pretty thing". I have no confirmation for this, however.

I have read that the inspiration for Pooh Bear came from the pet cub that a Canadian soldier in WWI brought to England, and was compelled to give to a zoo, where A.A.Milne brought his son to see it. It seems to me that at the end of the book a remark that the name came from the toy bear having a fly light on his nose, and going "Pooh" to drive it away, followed by a disclaimer I cannot quote accurately.

Here is a rather long URL about the beginning of the Pooh stories. I very much enjoyed it, but could not find the reference to the fly-on-the-nose being the origin of the name "Pooh".

http://www.pooh-corner.com/pooh.html

I may be an old-timer (going into late 50s) but I do have a five-year-old and a three-year-old running around the house. In the movie the Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh here is an afterword which discusses Pooh's namesake. Christopher Robin, the son of A. A. Milne, was enamored of a swan in an English zoo, a black swan if I remember arightly, and I will rerun the video later to check. The swan's name was Winnipeg; the Pooh part comes from something else in his early life, which I will look up and post later. And THAT, dear friends, is TRUE TRUE TRUE.

Pooh-bah is, as Keiva stated, from the Mikado, so far as I know.

Someday, when I have arrived at the exalted state of being one here, I will invite my fellow Pooh-Bahs together, and brew a pot of tea and talk over old times. Soon thereafter we will start a new thread entitled "The rites of Pooh-bah tea."

I, too, Dr. Bill, remember the fly on the nose reference as the origin of Pooh Bear's name and from early in one of the books to boot.

Dear TEd: How I wish I could go through the rites of Poohbah tea again.

Not me. You couldn't pay me enough to go thorough that turmoil again.
Other views?

Keiva solicits Other views?

Well, on the bright side, ignorance was indeed bliss... but I didn't know enough then to appreciate it. Catch-22. Drat.

When I said I'd welcome being an adolescent again, I was assuming that I would know as much as I do now.

Puberty (pu-bear t, TEd?) takes us back to the Pooh question. As to whether the history goes back no further than Milne and Gilbert: pooh itself (as in to belittle, or pooh-pooh a notion) goes back further:

Hamlet I.3. (Polonius): Affection! pooh! you speak like a green girl.

But Dr. Bill, if you could return to being an adolescent, you would probably know more than you know now. As everyone knows, and as Mr. Twain noted, as an adolescent you would certainly know more than your parents, at least.

Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.
--Bob Dylan, "My Back Pages"

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.
--Bob Seeger, "Against The Wind"

Somehow I never experienced the omniscience of adolescence. It was during the Depression, and nobody was cocky.

I seem to remember reading in one of the Pooh books (Pooh Bear, not Pooh Bah) the phrase "Winnie-ther-Pooh," uttered by Christopher Robin. I don't have it with me at the moment. Confirmation, anyone?

It occurs to me that the original Pooh books might be online, if they are old enough to be public domain. We could just LIU, online or otherwise!

The Duchess of Windsor when asked if she would like to be young again :
"Oh no, the poor dears have all thier mistakes ahead of them."

The Duchess of Windsor when asked if she would like to be young again :
"Oh no, the poor dears have all thier mistakes ahead of them."

Which "poor dears" would include her hopelessly pubescent husband, no doubt. Although he may not have seen it that way.

A UK tabloid said that the Duke of Windsor had gone from being an Admiral in the British Navy to being third mate on an American tramp.

pooh itself (as in to belittle, or pooh-pooh a notion) goes back further:

In my youth (cried the sage!!) the use of both "pooh" and "Bah!" as interjective exclamations to express disapproval was still alive (but only just - it was likely to bring amused glances, and you were more likely to hear the terms used in fun than in earnest.)

"Pooh" is dismissive, as keiva has already ably demonstrated.

"Bah" was an ireful comment, as in:-
"Bah! Stuff and nonsense! I've never heard such rubbish in my life!"
Definitely the sort of stuff for which excalmation marks were invented.

The Gilbertian character, Pooh-Bah (Lord High Everything Else),Hello, Jackie!! was a haughty person with a great sense of his own worth allied to an even greater sense of the unworthiness of everybody else in the world. At one point in the opera, he traces his ancestry back to a primeaval amoeba, on the basis that only the top families can trace their family trees back more than a couple of hundred years.
He looks down on everyone else, and is dismissive of all of the ideas of the world (apart from his own ideas, or those that will bring him an immediate cash bonus!)
The name typifies the character, which is, itself, a hefty dig at the aristocratic politicians of the day (c1860s, probably - my book of G&S is downstairs and it takes too long on the stair lift to go and get it!) who were a patrician lot, and some of them were very patronising.

As to Winnie-the-Pooh , I also have read the bit about the fly on the nose, but hadn't heard about the black swan.

The Gilbertian character, Pooh-Bah (Lord High Everything Else) was a haughty person with a great sense of his own worth allied to an even greater sense of the unworthiness of everybody else in the world.

Cana' speak for others, Laddie, but for myself I would be happy if Old Hand or Veteran was the top designation. ( S*i*g*h* -e)
--No offense meant to anyone as we have no control over "titles" except to stop at a title we like and that shows we've been around awhile and start again with a new "name" -- Must say I am not looking forward to Carpal Tunnel -- already had that and it's no fun a'tal, a'tal.

As one Poster wrote in a PM concerning taking titles seriously : "Pooh-Bah -no. High Priestess -yes!"
Couldn't agree more.
Aloha and s to all!

I may be an old-timer (going into late 50s) but I do have a five-year-old and a three-year-old running around the house......."The rites of Pooh-bah tea."

What, you're my age, but have rug rats? Did you enter pooh-bah-tea very, very late?

(Lord High Everything Else),Hello, Jackie!! was a haughty person with a great sense of his own worth allied to an even greater sense of the unworthiness of everybody else in the world
Well, thank you so much for that oh-so-flattering likeness,
Rhuby!

Yep. It's so much better to be a father for the first time at 50 rather than at 15.

Ted, you are nothing but sweet! Love to you, Dear!

Has anyone read The Tao of Pooh/ The Te of Piglet by Benjamin Hoff?