Greetings, all! This is my first post, so please be gentle. I am trying to find the origin of the phrase, "to make an honest man [or woman] out of [someone]." I believe the phrase is tied to the French expression "l'honnette homme" (pardon spelling errors) but I cannot verify. Any hints?

Well come to the board, coopycake - pleased to have you with us. And to start with such an interesting question.

These might be of interest

http://www.antiquesonline.com/pages/102064.html
print of the ruination of a Man – price 4150 !!

http://
http://biblioteca.euroweb.ro/zarif/pentru/laroch.htm

But just how they tie in with my understanding of the phrase, I am not clear! To me, "To make an honest woman" of someone means to regularise a close relationship by marrying the wench! (usuallly because of imminent parturition) A very patronising phrase, much in favour in late Victorian, and Edwardian times, when it was used in all seriousness, becoming more ironic in its use as the C20 progressed. In its ironic sense, I have also heard, "to make an honest man of him," used to a woman when she has announced that she is about to marry.

http://biblioteca.euroweb.ro/zarif/pentru/laroch.htm

Rumanian?

Must be, since it ends in .ro and it reads like Sardinian. If you go up to the home page you'll find it is.

I have also heard, "to make an honest man of him," used to a woman when she has announced that she is about to marry.

Ah, yes. Marrying the man will legally commit him to provide for the offspring. Unlike his dishonest abandonment (knowing or unknowing) of his earlier wild oats. Thus, he's forced to be honest to his obligations.

Ha! If you read the history of the "free love" movement (or just look around at society) you'll realize, some (many? most?) men are decent human beings, and will provide for their children, whether or not they are married to the child's mother. Other men (some? many? most?) are s***s, and will not provide, no matter what the law says-- they hid assests, they lie, they move, the send rubber checks.. Some men provide child support to any child their partner bears (even if it is obviously not theirs) others, run away from their responsibility, even when it is proven to be theirs..

(pick some/many/most from choice above based on your own feeling experience.) Marriage does not make a man (or woman!) honest!

In French, there is the phrase "l'honette homme" which loosely translates to "the honest man." In this phrase, an "honest man" is one who is refined, debonaire, classy, well-read, intelligent, etc. There is great value placed upon intellectuals and these "honest men"

In English, "to make an honest man of someone" seems to mean that a woman is going to wed a "savage" man. I was curious if the two ideas were related.

"honesty," in this sense, isn't so much about truthfulness as it is behaving as a gentleman and being socially presentable.

I was curious as to whether or not the English idiom and the French phrase are at all related.

The bride of Menelaus (talk about honest women) writes:
Marriage does not make a man (or woman!) honest.
Father Steve (wish he would make a reappearance) could tell you that marriage is the only one of the sacraments in which the participants are themselves the celebrants. They, not the priest or other minister or person, bring upon themselves whatever grace or gift the sacrament confers. Hence it follows that they receive from it what they themselves bring to it, and if you bring little, you get little. So, while I don't believe that Helen was implying that marriage doesn't do much for anyone, there are a lot of people who think exactly that, but they're wrong. It isn't marriage per se that is lacking, it's the spouses who are lacking.

As a Justice of the Peace and Quorum for my state I have officiated at quite a few marriages. My job, so to speak, is just as the witness for the State. The rules are quite complicated and I won't go into the myriad details, but I do not "marry" the couple. They marry each other.
The words I am required to say simply give the State's sanction. The two people enter into the contract.
It is my general feeling that if people knew more about contract law they wouldn't enter into the contract of marriage without very serious thought.
How about it Sparteye ... and all you Brothers and Sisters at the Bar?
If anyone interested, I can give you the shortest marriage form I know that is "legal" that is : recognized by the State.

If anyone interested, I can give you the shortest marriage form I know that is "legal" that is : recognized by the State.

Would that be "Huh?" and "Uh-huh" ?

That's hilarious, Rapunzel!!

That's hilarious, Rapunzel!!

Thanks, but I can't really take the credit for it. It's the punchline to an old joke about redneck marriage proposals.