Sandwiches redux - 07/07/01 05:56 PM
[sigh]
Re: Sandwiches redux - 07/07/01 07:08 PM
You are one funny lady! No wonder Faldage is head over heels with you.
(Will this fawning exempt me from some flogging in the near future if I dare revive a thread that has 800 posts in it? Will it? OOps-- sorry, I should be in the questions, questions thread!)
chronist
(Will this fawning exempt me from some flogging in the near future if I dare revive a thread that has 800 posts in it? Will it? OOps-- sorry, I should be in the questions, questions thread!)
chronist
Re: Sandwiches redux - 07/07/01 08:51 PM
Thank you both. It's a full moon. I love you guys.
Re: Sandwiches redux - 07/07/01 08:54 PM
Somehow, through it all, I became a veteran?
-she who does not count these thangs
-she who does not count these thangs
Re: Sandwiches redux - 07/07/01 09:00 PM
Congrats, AnnaS.
Nothing counts during the full moon.
Nothing counts during the full moon.
Re: Soda Pop (cont'd) - 07/07/01 09:46 PM
Thanks for the Bireley's link, wow! That's the one! 
And to return the favor, since you also live at the coast, here's a link from a fascinating article in a recent Smithsonian about a man who conducts scientific research by assembling data from the flotsam and jetsam accumulated by beachcombers around the world...soda bottles are a favorite item. Anybody who lives at the coast should enjoy this one.
http://beachcombers.org/
And to return the favor, since you also live at the coast, here's a link from a fascinating article in a recent Smithsonian about a man who conducts scientific research by assembling data from the flotsam and jetsam accumulated by beachcombers around the world...soda bottles are a favorite item. Anybody who lives at the coast should enjoy this one.http://beachcombers.org/
Re: Soda Pop (cont'd) - 07/08/01 04:39 PM
article in a recent Smithsonian .... (re) flotsam and jetsam accumulated by beachcombers
There is something weird going on .... I read the article yesterday!
Regarding the Full Moon :
Herewith an account from when I was actively reporting :
On one summer weekend the record of activity by local Police Department was particularly heavy with "nutcase" incidents. I asked rhetorically "Was there a full moon over the weekend?"
Sgt. MacDonald gave the definitive answer : "Every day is somebody's full moon."
There is something weird going on .... I read the article yesterday!
Regarding the Full Moon :
Herewith an account from when I was actively reporting :
On one summer weekend the record of activity by local Police Department was particularly heavy with "nutcase" incidents. I asked rhetorically "Was there a full moon over the weekend?"
Sgt. MacDonald gave the definitive answer : "Every day is somebody's full moon."
Re: Soda Pop (cont'd) - 07/08/01 05:42 PM
wow/>>
Sgt. MacDonald gave the definitive answer : "Every day is somebody's full moon."
If this quote is original, Sgt. MacDonald should be inducted into the pantheon of quote-makers, poste-haste.
Sgt. MacDonald gave the definitive answer : "Every day is somebody's full moon."
If this quote is original, Sgt. MacDonald should be inducted into the pantheon of quote-makers, poste-haste.
Re: Soda Pop (cont'd) - 07/09/01 12:06 AM
There is something weird going on...I read the article yesterday.
You what!?.....Has of troy cast some kind of spell upon us?
Every day is somebody's full moon.
Love that quote! It's the epitome of full-mooness!
You what!?.....Has of troy cast some kind of spell upon us?
Every day is somebody's full moon.
Love that quote! It's the epitome of full-mooness!
Re: Soda Pop (cont'd) - 07/09/01 12:23 AM
" (re) flotsam and jetsam accumulated by beachcombers "
Since dedicated linguaphiles have a passion for precision, may I suggest beachcombers can only study jetsam. The flotsam is out of their reach.
And remember the Smithsonian can be read online
http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues01/jul01/beachcombing.html
Since dedicated linguaphiles have a passion for precision, may I suggest beachcombers can only study jetsam. The flotsam is out of their reach.
And remember the Smithsonian can be read online
http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues01/jul01/beachcombing.html
Re: Soda Pop (cont'd) - 07/09/01 12:45 AM
out of their reach
Why so, Bill? I have always understood flotsam to be the debris of a foundered ship - could be so still, surely, even if washed ashore?
Why so, Bill? I have always understood flotsam to be the debris of a foundered ship - could be so still, surely, even if washed ashore?
Re: Soda Pop (cont'd) - 07/09/01 12:59 AM
"Why so, Bill? I have always understood flotsam to be the debris of a foundered ship - could be so still, surely,
even if washed ashore?"
Anglo-Fr floteson < OFr flotaison, a floating < floter, to float < MDu vloten (or OE flotian), to FLOAT6
1 the wreckage of a ship or its cargo floating at sea
2 odds and ends
var. of JETTISON
1 that part of the cargo or equipment thrown overboard to lighten a ship in danger: see FLOTSAM
2 such material washed ashore
3 discarded things
The way I interpret it, so long as it is afloat, it is flotsam. When it is thrown up on the beach, it becomes jetsam.
even if washed ashore?"
Anglo-Fr floteson < OFr flotaison, a floating < floter, to float < MDu vloten (or OE flotian), to FLOAT6
1 the wreckage of a ship or its cargo floating at sea
2 odds and ends
var. of JETTISON
1 that part of the cargo or equipment thrown overboard to lighten a ship in danger: see FLOTSAM
2 such material washed ashore
3 discarded things
The way I interpret it, so long as it is afloat, it is flotsam. When it is thrown up on the beach, it becomes jetsam.
Re: Soda Pop (cont'd) - 07/09/01 10:06 AM
The way I interpret it, so long as it is afloat, it is flotsam. When it is thrown up on the beach, it becomes jetsam.
I was taught the difference (and there may be some legal difference in salvage terms) was whether the items were set afloat accidentally, by the force of the waves or whatever, and were flotsam, or were deliberately jettisoned to help save the ship, and so were jetsam. By that definition they could both be washed ashore.
In googling (flotsam jetsam legal) I found differing definitions:
==========
FLOTSAM, JETSAM, LIGAN or FLOTSAN - A name for the goods which float upon the sea when a ship is sunk.
JETSAM or JETTISON - The casting out of a vessel, from necessity, a part of the lading; it differs from flotsam in that in the latter the goods float while in the former they sink and remain under water.
extra edited out
LIGAN or LAGAN. Goods cast into the sea tied to a buoy, so that they may be found again by the owners.
When goods are cast into the sea in storms or shipwrecks and remain there without coming to land, they are distinguished by the names of jetsam, flotsam, and ligan.
========================================
but also
========================================
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "FLOTSAM" AND "JETSAM" In English common law, "flotsam" (derived from the Latin flattare, "to float") referred specifically to the cargo or parts of a wrecked ship that float on the sea.
"Jetsam" also derived from Latin - jactare, "to throw" referred to goods purposely thrown overboard in order to either lighten the ship or to keep the goods from perishing if the ship went under. Although the main distinction between the two terms was the way the goods got into the water, technically, to become jetsam the cargo had to be dragged ashore above the high-water line. If not, the material was considered flotsam, which included all cargo found on the shore between the high and low-water lines.
=====================================
The more places I look the more definitions I find and the more confused I get.
Rod
I was taught the difference (and there may be some legal difference in salvage terms) was whether the items were set afloat accidentally, by the force of the waves or whatever, and were flotsam, or were deliberately jettisoned to help save the ship, and so were jetsam. By that definition they could both be washed ashore.
In googling (flotsam jetsam legal) I found differing definitions:
==========
FLOTSAM, JETSAM, LIGAN or FLOTSAN - A name for the goods which float upon the sea when a ship is sunk.
JETSAM or JETTISON - The casting out of a vessel, from necessity, a part of the lading; it differs from flotsam in that in the latter the goods float while in the former they sink and remain under water.
extra edited out
LIGAN or LAGAN. Goods cast into the sea tied to a buoy, so that they may be found again by the owners.
When goods are cast into the sea in storms or shipwrecks and remain there without coming to land, they are distinguished by the names of jetsam, flotsam, and ligan.
========================================
but also
========================================
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "FLOTSAM" AND "JETSAM" In English common law, "flotsam" (derived from the Latin flattare, "to float") referred specifically to the cargo or parts of a wrecked ship that float on the sea.
"Jetsam" also derived from Latin - jactare, "to throw" referred to goods purposely thrown overboard in order to either lighten the ship or to keep the goods from perishing if the ship went under. Although the main distinction between the two terms was the way the goods got into the water, technically, to become jetsam the cargo had to be dragged ashore above the high-water line. If not, the material was considered flotsam, which included all cargo found on the shore between the high and low-water lines.
=====================================
The more places I look the more definitions I find and the more confused I get.
Rod
Re: all adrift - 07/09/01 12:22 PM
Yes, I shared your initial understanding relating to the deliberate casting overboard, Rod, and now your puzzlement too! This is what the 'quick look' dictionary suggests:
flot·sam (flŏt'səm)
n.
Wreckage or cargo that remains afloat after a ship has sunk.
Floating refuse or debris.
Discarded odds and ends.
Vagrant, usually destitute people.
[Anglo-Norman floteson, from Old French floter, to float, of Germanic origin.]
USAGE NOTE In maritime law, flotsam applies to wreckage or cargo left floating on the sea after a shipwreck. Jetsam applies to cargo or equipment thrown overboard from a ship in distress and either sunk or washed ashore. The common phrase flotsam and jetsam is now used loosely to describe any objects found floating or washed ashore.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved
Also, my old Chambers gives this:
jetsam (obs.) jettison: the goods so thrown away and washed up on shore: according to some, goods from a wreck that remain under water
flotsam goods lost by shipwreck and found floating on the sea
Come in, tsuwm - or should I say Oedipus Rex?
flot·sam (flŏt'səm)
n.
Wreckage or cargo that remains afloat after a ship has sunk.
Floating refuse or debris.
Discarded odds and ends.
Vagrant, usually destitute people.
[Anglo-Norman floteson, from Old French floter, to float, of Germanic origin.]
USAGE NOTE In maritime law, flotsam applies to wreckage or cargo left floating on the sea after a shipwreck. Jetsam applies to cargo or equipment thrown overboard from a ship in distress and either sunk or washed ashore. The common phrase flotsam and jetsam is now used loosely to describe any objects found floating or washed ashore.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved
Also, my old Chambers gives this:
jetsam (obs.) jettison: the goods so thrown away and washed up on shore: according to some, goods from a wreck that remain under water
flotsam goods lost by shipwreck and found floating on the sea
Come in, tsuwm - or should I say Oedipus Rex?
Re: all adrift - 07/09/01 12:34 PM
"common phrase flotsam and jetsam is now used loosely" - loose as a goose
Re: Don't touch that trap! - 07/09/01 03:11 PM
In New England, after a storm, lobster traps are sometimes washed ashore. It is a punishable offense to take them, fine and or jail time.
In days when the traps were made of wood they were often stolen to make decorative coffee tables etc. The wood turns a lovely grey after submersion under sea water. The current Viny-covered-wire one don't seem to have the same aesthetic appeal.
You may drag the trap out of the shallow water but do *not* take it above the high tide line. All traps have a tag with owner name and a phone number (usually the local fishermen's co-op) on it. It's much appreciated when people call with info on locations of washed-ashore raps. The traps are expensive and a lobsterman has a hard life and his family depends on the catch. By the way, traps, (sometimes called "pots,") are usually a longish box shape.
The old fashion traps of wood, suitably weathered are still made by some old timers -- usually available thru giftie shoppies -- or you can ask a lobsterman and usually get a name and number ... if you are up early! Lobstermen go to sea about 4:30 a.m. and return to the dock between 10:30 and noon depending ....
In days when the traps were made of wood they were often stolen to make decorative coffee tables etc. The wood turns a lovely grey after submersion under sea water. The current Viny-covered-wire one don't seem to have the same aesthetic appeal.
You may drag the trap out of the shallow water but do *not* take it above the high tide line. All traps have a tag with owner name and a phone number (usually the local fishermen's co-op) on it. It's much appreciated when people call with info on locations of washed-ashore raps. The traps are expensive and a lobsterman has a hard life and his family depends on the catch. By the way, traps, (sometimes called "pots,") are usually a longish box shape.
The old fashion traps of wood, suitably weathered are still made by some old timers -- usually available thru giftie shoppies -- or you can ask a lobsterman and usually get a name and number ... if you are up early! Lobstermen go to sea about 4:30 a.m. and return to the dock between 10:30 and noon depending ....
Re: Don't touch that trap! - 07/09/01 04:50 PM
phew! that's a relief - safe ashore again. Now, lobster sandwiches are my absolute favourite.... hi, E!
hi, E!
Re: Don't touch that flotsam/jetsam trap! - 07/09/01 09:08 PM
Interesting study of flotsam and jetsam folks...one never knows what an idle comment might launch on these boards, does one? Amazed they passed that lobster pot law up your way, Ann. It's contrary to the time-honored salvage law of the sea. Once something is cast adrift or set free of its moorings, whoever salvages the boat, device, or whatever, is entitled to claim ownership. This even goes for boats stranded on the marshes during storms. Indicates to me how seriously folks take their lobsterin' up yonder. Not that fishermen aren't as dedicated in our area...but changing the code of the sea is a major step in a seaman's eyes. After storms lots of pots, traps, and assorted paraphernalia wash up on our beaches, and folks head down and collect whatever's salvageable as their own. Any seasoned "salts" or sailors (and I know, hearkening back to that infamous nautical thread, that we have seafolk afoot!) who could give us a more educated look at the law of salvage on the sea?
Amazed they passed that lobster pot law up your way, Ann. It's contrary to the time-honored salvage law of the sea. Once something is cast adrift or set free of its moorings, whoever salvages the boat, device, or whatever, is entitled to claim ownership. This even goes for boats stranded on the marshes during storms. Indicates to me how seriously folks take their lobsterin' up yonder. Not that fishermen aren't as dedicated in our area...but changing the code of the sea is a major step in a seaman's eyes. After storms lots of pots, traps, and assorted paraphernalia wash up on our beaches, and folks head down and collect whatever's salvageable as their own. Any seasoned "salts" or sailors (and I know, hearkening back to that infamous nautical thread, that we have seafolk afoot!) who could give us a more educated look at the law of salvage on the sea?
Re: Don't touch that flotsam/jetsam trap! - 07/09/01 10:06 PM
Dear WhitmanO"Neill: I suspect that salvage of things cast ashore may be much more complicated than you think. Do you suppose that if some kids untied your boat from its mooring, and it drifted ashore, that it would become the property of tje first person to take hold of its mooring rope?
Re: Don't touch that flotsam/jetsam trap! - 07/10/01 03:32 AM
No, Dr. Bill, of course not...but there's some kind of criterion or time-frame when things cast adrift are considered fair game, and from then on there's no claim to ownership except for the salvager. That's why I was hoping someone could get more specific.
Re: Don't touch that flotsam/jetsam trap! - 07/10/01 12:22 PM
B;ut Wow's lobster traps had identifcation on them That makes a big difference. They are not up for grabs.
Re: Traps galore! - 07/10/01 02:02 PM
Traps galore in laws!
The traps that are found are generally the result of a sea storm that rips them from the seabed and an incoming tide that deposits them on the beach. An act of Poseidon or whatever Sea god may be ... ???
The traps that are found are generally the result of a sea storm that rips them from the seabed and an incoming tide that deposits them on the beach. An act of Poseidon or whatever Sea god may be ... ???
Maritime law - 07/10/01 05:40 PM
Various national laws and international law create a very complicated situation in regard to jettisoned cargo, abandoned ships, salvage, etc. The question of who has a right to claim such things is also complicated by insurance considerations, as an insurer has an interest. One of the things I do know is that no one wants to leave a ship, still afloat, abandoned; if so, the first person to put a cable on board it can claim it as its salvor. Hence there will always be an effort made to get some member of the crew to stay on board an otherwise abandoned craft as long as possible to allow the owners to get their own salvors to it and thus preserve their ownership. But in all cases of cargo, stores, vessels, etc. the law is extremely complex and an ordinary lawyer isn't likely to know much, if anything, about it -- it's the province of a specialist, the admiralty lawyer.
Re: all adrift - 07/10/01 07:53 PM
"common phrase flotsam and jetsam is now used loosely" - loose as a goose
Where's Humpty Dumpty when you need him?
Where's Humpty Dumpty when you need him?
Re: all adrift - 07/10/01 08:38 PM
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
Re: Maritime law - 07/10/01 09:38 PM
no one wants to leave a ship, still afloat, abandoned; if so the first person to put a cable on board it can claim it as its salvor
Thanks, Bob! Abandonment. That's what I was looking for, pertaining to vessels at sea...just couldn't remember. And all seaman respect that. The other stuff (washed-up debris and broken moorings) I don't know about. Seems to me if the lobster pots have ID then the owners can claim them...even without a special law. But, then again, abandoned boats and ships have registration numbers and other means of identifying ownership, but the law of abandonment still stands there? A curious quandary.
Thanks, Bob! Abandonment. That's what I was looking for, pertaining to vessels at sea...just couldn't remember. And all seaman respect that. The other stuff (washed-up debris and broken moorings) I don't know about. Seems to me if the lobster pots have ID then the owners can claim them...even without a special law. But, then again, abandoned boats and ships have registration numbers and other means of identifying ownership, but the law of abandonment still stands there? A curious quandary.
Re: flotsam and jetsam - 07/14/01 06:21 PM
maverick remarked (some time back) Come in, tsuwm - or should I say Oedipus Rex?
1233 unread messages... all I can do at this point is search for 'tsuwm'...
I have no idea where this ended up, but here is a wwftd entry from quite some time ago:
the worthless word for the day is: waveson
wreckage floating on the sea: flotsam
(note that jetsam is stuff thrown overboard to
lighten the load in time of distress and sinks
or is washed ashore)
so at some point all three (flotsam, jetsam and waveson) could be found floating adrift in the ocean.
and will I ever discover what the O. Rex allusion means?
1233 unread messages... all I can do at this point is search for 'tsuwm'...
I have no idea where this ended up, but here is a wwftd entry from quite some time ago:
the worthless word for the day is: waveson
wreckage floating on the sea: flotsam
(note that jetsam is stuff thrown overboard to
lighten the load in time of distress and sinks
or is washed ashore)
so at some point all three (flotsam, jetsam and waveson) could be found floating adrift in the ocean.
and will I ever discover what the O. Rex allusion means?
Re: Don't touch that trap! - 07/15/01 04:53 AM
Glad you're back, tsuwm.
safe ashore again. Now, lobster sandwiches are my absolute favourite
Very clever, Aunt mav! Subtlety lives!
Dr. Bill says Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
I hear his winter wasn't so bad, either.
safe ashore again. Now, lobster sandwiches are my absolute favourite
Very clever, Aunt mav! Subtlety lives!
Dr. Bill says Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
I hear his winter wasn't so bad, either.
Re: Don't touch that trap! - 07/15/01 12:00 PM
Dear Jackie: Do you mean the King's horses and King's men were able to put him back together again?
Re: Great quote - 07/15/01 01:31 PM
Hadn't checked this thread in awhile and so want to take the opportunity to give credit where credit is due.
"Every day is somebody's full moon" was said by Sgt. Joseph MacDonald, juvenile officer for the Hampton Police Department. As memory serves it was about 1975-76. Sgt. MacDonald was a tall, sandy-haired, blue eyed, slender man with a great smile and he was loved by all, especially the kids and teens in the town. He did great work, so good in fact that when he reached mandatory retirement age, the State Legislature passed a special Bill to allow him to continue as Juvenile Officer for the HPD. His wife, Anna, was always his support and the love of his life. He once told me that "without Anna I never could have done it."
There are a lot of "solid citizens" today who owe, at least in part, their good life to words of wisdom from Sgt. Mac received when they were in the rebellious teens.
"Every day is somebody's full moon" was said by Sgt. Joseph MacDonald, juvenile officer for the Hampton Police Department. As memory serves it was about 1975-76. Sgt. MacDonald was a tall, sandy-haired, blue eyed, slender man with a great smile and he was loved by all, especially the kids and teens in the town. He did great work, so good in fact that when he reached mandatory retirement age, the State Legislature passed a special Bill to allow him to continue as Juvenile Officer for the HPD. His wife, Anna, was always his support and the love of his life. He once told me that "without Anna I never could have done it."
There are a lot of "solid citizens" today who owe, at least in part, their good life to words of wisdom from Sgt. Mac received when they were in the rebellious teens.
Re: flotsam and jetsam - 07/15/01 07:54 PM
and will I ever discover what the O. Rex allusion means?
i think mav was referring, in his unerringly witty way*, to those big fancy books you have.
*hi, ASp!
i think mav was referring, in his unerringly witty way*, to those big fancy books you have.
*hi, ASp!
Re: flotsam and jetsam - 07/15/01 09:26 PM
"and will I ever discover what the O. Rex allusion means?"
Making a joke out of parricide and mater-matrimony will require infinite ingenuity.
No wonder mav had to take a lengthy time out.
"How dreadful knowledge of the truth can be
When there's no help in truth"
Making a joke out of parricide and mater-matrimony will require infinite ingenuity.
No wonder mav had to take a lengthy time out.
"How dreadful knowledge of the truth can be
When there's no help in truth"
Re: Great quote - 07/16/01 02:16 AM
My favorite quote this year came from a "customer" who, after consulting his voices, informed me that "It's not easy leading an alien lifestyle." I answered him that I was sure he must be right.
consuelo
consuelo