Hello! Just saw today's word ("betide, from Old English tidan (happen), from tid (time)") and wondered whether "Time and tide wait for no man" was originally redundant. Any ideas?

Welcome Sakka

I don't know but I do know that its an old saying and that tide didn't always refer to the sea rising or falling but to a season or a period in a year. Like in the phrase 'good tidings' as in an event or occasion.

Yes, it appears to have been intentionally, poetically redundant, rather like kith and kin. I think in both cases there are shades of difference, but they reinforce each other in meaning as well as sound.

Kith are people you know; kin are people you are related to.

the Word Detective tidily agrees: "In fact, however, the "tide" of the proverb has nothing to do with the ocean or sailing ships. "Tide" in this case simply means "time" (making the proverb, which has been around in various forms since at least the 14th century, amount to the redundant and borderline nonsensical "Time and time wait for no man")."

Yes, but they're all people of importance in one's life, some more, some less, who have direct influence, and in many practical ways are not that different. I interpret time and tide to mean time and events, which are not strictly identical, but of no practical difference within the scope of the adage. To me those are shades of difference, close enough to be considered redundant.

Truly, and many kith are more important in many areas than kin.
And in many cases let something happen to you they both desert
you.

Kith and kin; never heard that expression before. There's kith and kin and if you're lucky there's neighbours. They all matter in different degrees.

I don't know any of my neighbors.

Really!? Do you live in the city or the rural area?
I know my neighbors....and prefer they stay over there on their side of street. But I am the curmudgeonly neighbor, not them.
One of the best things about being an adult is that you can choose your own 'family'; kith are many times better than kin.

I prefer kith over all my kin.
I live in the heart of a city with population including
suburbs of over half million plus. I live in urban
neighborhood. I know the name of one immediate neighbor
to the north, and that is all. I never speak to any,
nor they too me, and consider myself very lucky.
There are places with all these 'block parties',
and gossip, etc. I cannot abide all that. I just want
to be left alone and not included in that type of thing
just because some think it is the essence of neighbors.
Don't know if you watch "Desperate Housewives", or have
ever caught any of the episodes. That would drive me
"bonkers".

will you come be my neighbor? We'd get along just fine. I know the program you mentioned, but I don't have TV out here.
My kin are okay but mostly because they all live far away!

Exactly. I've never been close to any relatives. My father
had 16 siblings and I've got dozens of cousins, Last count
was 59 and that was when I was in 8th grade. That was decades
ago, so who knows how many now. I don't know any of them.
I read the obituaries now just to see when they die. Morbid,
I know.
No TV??
You must live out on some obscure island. You are probably
better off without it. I almost envy you.

I didn't grow up with all the cousins (there aren't all that many) because I am the baby of the family and some behind the main bunch. My daughter is much more connected with her 'sibling kin' than I was.
Neither of us, daughters family or I, have TV although we own TVs. We use them for watching movies and some for gaming.
It all started out like this...When she was about 10 the TV was stolen in a break-in and I didn't replace it. We just did other things (lived in a town of about 40,000). When, in high school, she wanted a TV again, we were actually on our way to buy one when she saw an old table that she liked at an antique show. Her choice (at age 15) was TV or the table. She chose the table and still uses it daily for her family.
Our town is about 33,000 here in Oregon. Although both of us live in the rural area outside of it, we are not exactly in the hinterlands. We have running water and flush toilets, just don't watch TV.

Very impressive.
I have to give you credit: no TV is very admirable, especially
since so many youth today are couch potatoes, spending so much
time on it, either there or those handheld devices.
I live on a street where there are kids. I see bikes periodically
(though they could belong to adults) and I hear them screaming
once in a while, but I never see them: all indoors I presume.
Good going.

We make up for it with yodeling hound dogs and loud motorcycles! Oh, and my little rooster that crows hourly throughout the night. I swear he was a watchman in a former life....2 of the clock and all is well!

When my wife and I were married (30.4767…) years ago, but who's counting?) our honeymoon trip was our move to Alaska. As I recall, our worldly possessions were about $3,000 cash and a grossly overloaded Dodge Omni. No TV. Since then we've been so busy we've never missed it. Our three dogs are more apt to yell than yodel; I have three trombones, but I only play one at a time.

I have three trombones, but I only play one at a time.


Whew, you had me worried there for a moment, Peter.

Television. I watch it. However I tape shows so I can skip
the inane advertisements. No shows in particular. I am
pretty eclectic, I like the entertainment, but also
education and learning things, and there are excellent
choices of both.

Wow! Three trombones! even one at a time if I was your neighbor I'd want a mute!
I'll just keep my baying hound I believe

The owner of the room I have rented is a drummer and our neighbour is his competitor.

I don't complain about their motorcycles and snow machines, they don't complain about my trombones. Some people actually like music.

I was about to ask if there was a drummer involved, and
then I read it in the next post. Wow, destiny.

Ooh, ooh! Cross-thread to paradiddle!

Edit: Peter, if you can paradiddle on the trombone, I will be VERY impressed!

Never actually tried it; I suppose that a variant of double-tonguing might be possible. Prepare yourself to be unimpressed.

'S'all right: you have already impressed me in other ways.

LOL I know just how you mean Jackie

Thanks.

I know just how you mean Jackie Wha-at?? Peter--I'm not the only one?! Oh, the heartbreak! [ wink]

Sorry, Jackie; time you knew.

Why don't you buy a drum set too. I'm sure you would beat them out of it.

Even if I do get myself a drum set and join in the noise, no competition Bran. Another can have the number 1 position if he/she wants. I would want to sit in the corner, out of the spotlight, and be happy that I have a drumset of my own. Times are hard. Small joys are the way to go.

Small joys are the way to go.

I very much agree with that.

But how can you sit in a quiet little corner when you have a drumset? I just thought you wanted to silence them, but sure you can make time arrangements. You off, they drum for instance???

Who said it was a QUIET corner, Bran? My favorite drummer is a quiet man who sits in the dark at the back of the stage, crashing away, while the guitar and keyboard guys sweat in the light and glory.

Yeah sweat in the light and glory is about right. No one talks about the heat, discomfort and sweat of the spotlight.
No bran, not a quiet little corner unfortunately. Even if I drum softly I will make some noise. But as little noise as as possible and no I do not want to shut them up. Its useful to have them loud. You can hide behind it.
Edit : all this is hypothetical. I am not a drummer.

My ex neighbour had electronic drums and she used earphones so she could hear, but no-one else was disturbed.

The kids that live next to me have both a trumpet and drums. I never mind listening to them practice...it can actually be pretty hilarious at times since they have only been playing a couple of years....new forms of syncopation?!
My hound occasionally bays along with them, but I haven't been able to figure out what, in particular, makes him join in.