I had a wee bitty argument with a friend today over the use of Y in words such as my, mine etc. I said that MYN was a perfectly reasonable substitute for MINE but unfortunately I was disbelieved, even though I pointed out that MY has a Y not an I. I wondered if any of you wished to preside as referee and declare one of us the winner of this...err...little...discussion

I do not know the right or wrong of using y instead of i. I used it in my username only becauses 'y' matches 'v' and 'A' in pattern - one upward'^' and two downward 'v'. (I know - I am working on getting a life.) Karat, I think, that sign is called.
Eta: Caret

I said that MYN was a perfectly reasonable substitute for MINE but unfortunately I was disbelieved, even though I pointed out that MY has a Y not an I.

Well, there is no rhyme or reason to English orthography, and you are "free" to spell words any old way you want. Whether that "freedom" is backed by some right, who knows? That being said, folks will judge you by how well you follow the standard orthography, just as they will judge you (rightly or wrongly) by a host of other arbitrary conventions and accidents of nature. I suggest one of you adopt the Middle Welsh dotted y: ẏ.

English during its history has gone through relative periods of orthographic stability and chaos. Shakespeare's time is a good example. Take a look at a page from one of his plays in its various editions (link).

myn also stops the confusion between mine, mine and mine but definitely means mine albeit spelt more fun

myn MYN MYN

myn also stops the confusion between mine, mine and mine but definitely means mine albeit spelt more fun

I think words should be spelled phonemically. Differences in spoken regional dialects could be handled by specifying a national standard dialect and spelling as that dialect is pronounced. The spelling of homonyms differently is just too confusing. Spell them all the same. If there is any chance of ambiguity (not resolvable by context) the pronunciation or word itself will change over time.

But where is the fun in deciphering the meanings in that?! It would be hard to implement but would probably make it easier for people to spell

I would probably (seeing it in print) pronounce myn like min. not sure why.

But where is the fun in deciphering the meanings in that?! It would be hard to implement but would probably make it easier for people to spell

It would be a lot of fun to have a phonemic system of spelling. It would get children reading and writing sooner. As I said above, there are very few situations where homonyms lead to ambiguity because of the way language works. Nobody just utters a single homonym without some context. Context goes a long way towards resolving any possible ambiguity. That is unless one's interlocutor is bound to confuse you rather than accommodate communication. Like euphemisms and political correctness, the anger is already there in the speaker's/hearer's attitude, not something caused by utterances in the language of communication.

It would be a lot of fun to have a phonemic system of spelling. Ah, but then you'd have people like me who would write grruhl because that's how I say it.

In one of the Beezus and Ramona books there is a line that goes something like this: Beezus always spelled everything correctly, but Ramona couldn't care less about whether she'd spelled something right, as long as people knew what she meant.

Thought that was apt for this thread.

I think myne could work but not myn.
English spelling has some general rules and patterns but there are numerous exceptions and so is hard to teach spelling at school.

Why MYNE?

I think MYNE could work but not MYN.

English spelling has some general rules and patterns but there are so maaaany exceptions that it is hard to teach spelling at school. Besides, there are accents and spelling reforms that undermine any efforts to teach spelling.

Why MYNE?

Well, silent e at the end means that y would most likely be pronounced [ai], otherwise y looks like short [i]. Myn = [min]

Ah but if you say my it sounds mahy (sorry terrible at phonetic spelling but can't get the other ones to work) so by putting the n on the end you don't get min you get mahyn (like when you say mine)...the y sound is like in try, ply and fly not like in dystopia, dysentery...

Except tacking a consonant on the end changes everything. See, e.g., I and in or bi- and bin.

You could not have said it better.

You've got me there...until I can think of an example anyway...



AHA ty and tyke, dye and dyke :p

Ah, but these attempts at counter-examples have a final silent E, which in general makes the preceding vowel long.

errrr...I was hoping you wouldn't notice that...my brilliant plan failed it seems as elifit said earlier MYNE could work, but it looks funny...how about...MY-N?

how about Arwyn or Ailyn? they have ai sounds...

Sure, you're going to get exceptions and oddly spelled names will be a rich source of those exceptions

Arwyn, Aragorn's love.

hehe any effort to change the spelling looks funny

True! And I know I am just littering these TABA LOTR connections aren't I! If you accept those exceptions why not myn? (hehehe) myne kind of destroys the purpose of the y though...might as well keep the i if the e remains ...I shall think on this...

Yes but when you have myne, it sort of resembles my right? Is your goal to shorten the word or to make it more akin to my? hehe . We could go further.. let's make my - mi (like bi, hi etc) and leave mine as it is

But mi looks like mih not mai...I just like the y I think...I don't think it gets out enough!

yeah, poor y.. it's underestimated in English, in Polish it's a completely distinct vowel, you don't pronounce it i, more as tougher shwa.

Ah no rejection of a lovely letter for you then! I think it is incredibly underused and must feel very lonely...(much like the green smiley Luke ) maybe I should learn Polish in order to more fully appreciate its "awesomeness" (to quote Jack Black!)

Or you and Elifit could create a Tolkien-esque
language of your own based on "Y". If Hawai'ian has
only twelve letters in its alphabet, I am sure the
two of you could do wonders. You've already had
ever conceivable combination of myne.

Hmm that is a definite possibility! I once had afriend who learnt how to speak Tolkien's Elvish with her brother...it was scary how good they were at it and they used to switch between the two languages (english and elvish) during conversations or when they didn't want to be overheard...I was taught a bit by them but I forget most of it now when I try to use it

I think it would be sort of fun.
Esperanto...another.
Klingon..and another.
But Elvish would rank first in my interest.

Okay all these posts have whetted my apetite for Tolkein. I saw one movie but have not read any of the books. I think it is time to remedy that. Would "the hobbit" be a good place to start? Also what is TABA?

yes, start with The Hobbit.

as for TABA, I have no idea. :¬ )

TABA is The Hobbit...my father used to call it TABA because the title of The Hobbit is actually: The Hobbit, or There and Back Again hence the TABA...I assume he found it funny to hear a five year old calling to read 'TABA' as a bedtime story...we used to take turns reading...one night I would read a bit to him for my bedtime story, then my father would read a bit to me as my bedtime story...

Yes, the Hobbit, as the Hobbit movie is not yet ready and even though the motion pictures are entertaining the whole tale is far more enchanting when you read it.

Speaking of Arwyn, it was Arwen who was Aragorn's enamorata. Arwyn is a Welsh name and the Y is properly pronounced like the I in it. There may well be some non-Welsh speakers who pronounce it like a long I but that's no more the "correct" pronunciation than is "Kate Linn" the "correct" pronunciation of the Irish Caitlin, (cat leen).

It took me a while to understand Bex's use of TABA.
Then he told me: it is the HOBBIT; THERE AND BACK AGAIN.

Yes, Avy, start with the Hobbit, especially before the two
movies come out, and then LOTR. I hope you love it as much
as we do.

Thanks for that bit of history, I was actually wondering which syllable is stressed in Arwyn, because pronunciation seems to depend of stress, if Ar-is to be long vowel [aar], then -wyn has to be unstressed, hence y->[i].

But as for myn and myne, we have only one syllable, so no stress factor. I propose to find other examples of short words with _y_ structure so we can see if y is ever pronounced [ai]

I will fish this thread back up again when I am done and report on how I liked it. Thanks y'all.

I don't know about the stress structure in Welsh, but the W is a full-on vowel. Arwyn is pronounced something like Ahr-oo-in.

You mean W in English? It's a semi vowel so yes it can act as vowel in certain conditions. Do you mean that Ar-w-yn has 3 syllables? and you pronounce w as [u]?? Makes sense, shall we take Ailyn then?
Ai-lyn has two syllables. First syllable accented, hence long diphthong [ei] and shwa or short [i] in the second, right?
Anyway, I meant that unstressed syllables act as shwas or short vowels, so it's best to come up with short words with the _y_ structure.

I look forward to your report. It is so nice to share
things that are enjoyable.

No, the W in the Welsh language. In English I would pronounce Arwyn with two syllables, Ahr-win, but if I were attempting to pronounce it in Welsh I'd give it three syllables, Ahr-oo-in.

Actually I prefer the three syllables, less harsh.
Soft.

In Welsh I believe it is pronounced Ahr-a-wen

Not quite as "soft", but still not as harsh.
Anyone here speak Welsh to confirm it all for us???

This
may help:

http://www.linguata.com/welsh/welsh-pronunciation-vowels.html

I'm lost.

I know that in Polish it's pronounced beutifully, with female suffix -a: Arwena [Ahr-we-nah]

By the way, my name is Ewelina [E-ve-lee-nah] and it is [e] at the beginning

On the Polish side of my family I had an aunt named
Eulalia, What does that mean, if anything??

And boy, was that difficult to say, at least for me:
Aunt Eulalia, which was required by our strict family
codes.

Pronounced Youlayleeyuh? Gosh I wish I'd had an aunt with that name.

"Eulalia is a feminine given name of Greek origin meaning "well-spoken". I bet she sang well as well.

I don't know about her singing, she has long passed, but
she was very gentle. Yes, that is the pronunciation.

I'm not Welsh but I think Arwyn would be pronounced with 2 syllables in Welsh: /arwɪn/

so 'w' isn't *always a vowel in Welsh?

That's right.

So...how is the Welsh word "cwm" pronounced?

Hey, goofy, it's nice to see you again; you don't come here (or at least, post) often enough!

Cwm

Thanks, Olly.

Sometimes an accent is used to indicate the vowel is long, for instance gŵn "gown" vs gwn "gun".

So, it is basically an O with its various pronunciations.

I'm not sure what you mean. The vowels it represents are /ʊ/ and /u/.
All the Welsh vowel letters can have a circumflex accent to represent a long vowel.

I was thinking the same thing as elifit - that myne would be a better spelling. Otherwise, like Buffalo Shrdlu and me, many would pronounce it min. I also ask why? Is there some benefit to the alternative spelling? Or is it simply an affectation?

For the record, I admire properly placed affectation and do not use the term in any negative connotation...

Since we're suggesting new spellings, I would spell my maɪ and mine maɪn.

But then many ppl would pronounce [mei] and [mein], don't you think?

But then many ppl would pronounce [mei] and [mein], don't you think?

Not really any concern of mine, as nobody would ever spell things except with the current broken "system". Spelling reform could never work in this country or the UK.

As for my spellings, almost everybody that speaks a language that uses the Latin alphabet would have an easier time of pronouncing English words written in my system, because we are the only language that has changed the pronunciation of the cardinal vowels so much (over 600 years ago), but never bothered to update our spelling.

yeah, if we all knew the IPA, this wouldn't be a problem.

yeah, if we all knew the IPA, this wouldn't be a problem.

It never ceases to amaze me that we spend so much time teaching English orthography in schools (and have silly contests like spelling bees), but the thought of learning the IPA sends shivers down the collective spines of parents. In most languages with some sort of regularized phonemic orthography, children learn to read much faster. Even getting dictionaries to use IPA seems a duanting thankless task. The OED does.

>the thought of learning the IPA sends shivers down the collective spines of parents

well, obviously, that's because the *parents don't want to have to learn something new.
-ron o.