When did pronunciation /sp. of Neanderthal change?

As a novice paleontologist/archaeologist I've been familiar with "Neanderthal" since I was a small boy, pronounced and spelled with the soft 'th'. Neanderthal being, to those of you who may be unfamiliar, a species of prehistoric 'man' who most paleontologists and anthropologists believe became extinct due to a lack of an ability to compete
with the more well-adapted homo sapien, Cro-Magnon Man. I also studied German and am well-aware of the literal German pronunication of the 'th' as a hard 't'. But, until the past few years, to my knowledge the soft 'th' was ALWAYS the accepted tenet. Then, suddenly, the adopted pronunciation has changed to the hard 't', and the spelling in many quarters has dropped the 'h' altogether. In fact, a recent cover story in no less an authority than Archaeology Magazine (Fall 2000, I believe) used the "no-h" spelling. And the recent special on Discovery, "Neandethal," fully adopted the new "hard-t" pronunciation, but included the "h" in the spelling! I'm mystified as to when and why this change transpired and who deemed it so...does anybody have the answer? I'd love to know! (Or is this just, perhaps, some sudden mass confusion?...or war of preference?) Hard as I try I just can't get used to the new one, and so I've decided to be stubborn and stick with the old...I like it better, anyway! I'm really hoping one of you can clear this up for me!

Try: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/spelling.html

National Geographic acknowledged the change either last year or the year before when they did an article on the valley in France where all the cave paintings have been found. Sorry, can't remember and can't reference the particular issue.

Excellent reference. I'd wondered about that.

I find I'm tending to make a distinction between Neandert(h)al pronounced -taal, the ancient humanoid, and neanderthal, adj., -thl, pertaining to modern humanoids who behave in ways I disapprove of.

I've been familiar with "Neanderthal" since I was a small boy, pronounced and spelled with the soft 'th'....I've decided to be stubborn and stick with the old...

I'm right beside you Whitman!
And if someone is so sassy as to tell me "It's pronounced Neandertal"
I shall wither them with a glance!
(It's a talent all High Priestesses must master.)
Aloha,
wow
ps : The mighty Enigma corrects Neandertal to Neanderthal. Vindication!

Thanks for the great feedback so far, folks! Capital Kiwi, your National Geographic reference panned-out. I searched the site and found this posting explaining the 'Why': ..."more than 40 people wrote to comment on the spelling of the word "Neadertal" [their spelling!] on the January 1996 cover of National Geographic magazine. We pointed out that in German the word means Neander Valley--the place where the first Neanderthal was discovered in 1856. This century the Germans dropped the "h" in their word for valley [thal/tal] , thus shortening the "Neanderthal" of yesterday." WAIT A MINUTE! According to who (or whom)? I will continue to research for that answer and also the 'When' of it! Because I find that explanation a bit annoying. First of all, that is a SCIENTIFIC NAME! To my knowledge, scientific names, once bestowed, are immutable! That's why they exist, to provide their own original nomenclature for reference. I mean, if the Greek language decided to change the "y" in tyrannos to an "i" would we suddenly start spelling Tyrannosaurus "Tirannosaurus'?...I don't think so! And Neandethal is listed in every good dictionary I've perused with the "H" spelling, and the hard 't' proper-German pronunciation as a second option. Indeed, the German language has dropped the "H" from "thal," but according to my old college German textbook this happened at least as far back as 1970...so 25 years later somebody has a brainstorm to amend the spelling? I found a site, "Neanderthal Heaven," with postings from scientists from as late as last year with no hints or reference to a name change whatsoever. And only one recent site listed used the "H"-less spelling! I also found an "Ask the Experts" page at the Scientific American site where, as a last recourse, I can E-mail a query to the last two parts of this question. But, all in all, I'm holdin' out for "NeandertHal!" And thanks, 'wow,' for your enthusiastic support in joining me on this! When the "Keep the "H" in Neanderthal!" T-shirts are ready, I'll let ya know! I'll report back with the results of my continued investigation (unless, of course, somebody else checks in with the answers first). They changed my "Brontosaurus" to "Apatosaurus"...they're NOT going to get away with this one!

Whitman - you definitely merit the "stranger" appellation under your name, but I applaud your resolve. I, too, mourn the lost brontosaurus - my son will never understand the appeal of ordering a brontosaurus burger, a l� Fred Flintstone.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors regarding the modernization of the poor Neanderthal - what will they do next, take out the n's? Imagine it - reading of the evolutionary backwater once occupied by the benighted eadertal, poor sod.

And while you're at it - can you do something about continental drift? I mean, I like the other continents and all, but I don't think I need them any closer to me. Living in earthquake-prone California, this is an issue that may have even more immediate implications in my life than the pronunciation and orthography of Neanderthal.

Oh, and welcome to the board.

I mean, I like the other continents and all, but I don't think I need them any closer to me.

Ah, but just think how much more bigger California's beaches will be when all three Californias are an island!

By the way, the full scientific name is " Homo Sapiens Neaderthalensis"...I meant to include that in my last post.

Forgive me, Hyla....it's not my fault.

To my knowledge, scientific names, once bestowed, are immutable!

True, but this does not support your position. It's true that the original spelling Homo sapiens neanderthalensis won't be changed. This comes under the rule of immutable names. But (i) Neanderthal Man isn't a scientific name in that sense (a taxonomic name), protected by international convention; and (ii) the immutability applies only to that subspecies. If a reclassification occurs in the light of new knowledge, and it's decides that what was formerly called this now deserves to be a species in its own right, the new species gets a name of its own: as we have recently seen Homo heidelbergensis, H. antecessor and so on; this could be H. neandertalensis, H. neumannii, or whatever. It would be a new name.

They changed my "Brontosaurus" to "Apatosaurus"...

No they didn't. Scientific names are immutable. The Apatosaurus was described and named. Some years later a specimen was found that was described and named Brontosaurus; unfortunately it later turned out to be the same kind of animal as the existing Apatosaurus. So the old name has priority. The new name Brontosaurus caught on, but is invalid.

I, too, mourn the lost brontosaurus - my son will never understand the appeal of ordering a brontosaurus burger,
I sympathise with the deprivation yoiur son will suffer - can I offer a reasonable substitute?

Bring him to Haworth, in West Yorkshire, (quite safe - foot & mouth is all around, but not in the town) the town where Charlotte Bront� and her sisters and brother grew up.
Go to the fish-and-chip shop there, and you will be able to buy him a "Bront�-burger."

(I wish that I was just winding you up, here

)

The karsi idea is new to me. But arse is good Old English; cognate with Greek orrhos. (The German is Arsch but I don't know where the sch comes from. No sniggering down the back there.)

I've responded to this one back on the rhyming slang thread

and Pluto's not a planet any more--according to AMNH--

More acurately, AMNH thinks the defination of Planet need to be revised-- and but in the display of planets they have Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, (the asteroid belt) Jupitor, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and the --- (Auuggh!) some new belt of astreroids-- Kulp-- Kul..-- pluto is just one of the bodies in this newly discovered collections. and they are not sure if it is a planet-- or just a large asteroid in this collection.

I have to get a new mnemonic--
My very educated mother just sat upon noodle pudding. Won't work any more.

I took yesterday off, was out in the sun, got a sun burn and fried my brain to boot!

Thanks for the interesting and detailed look at the declension of scientific names, NicholasW. And, while I'm aware of the technicalities justifying the change from Brontosaurus to Apatosaurus, I still feel it's a shame to have lost that name...Thunder Lizard! From the Greek 'bronte.' So appropriate. Brontosaurus has resonance! One of the two most classically known dinosaur names...Tyrannosaurus Rex and Brontosaurus. As well as the favorites, and most readily identifiable, for most any child intrigued with these creatures. I'll always lament the loss of Brontosaurus...but, yes, the scientific reasons make sense.

On one other note: My posts are leading to deletions and arse?...hmmmmm.

Well, we certainly seem to have got to the bottom of this thread, anyway!

This century the Germans dropped the "h" in their word for valley [thal/tal] , thus shortening the "Neanderthal" of yesterday.

Which explains why it was possible that in Munich a certain Hans Blumenthal disappeared from the record, and so from sight, while paychecks went unclaimed for one Hans Blumental whom no one knew and who refused to collect and cash them. B was found dead by a beggar on the banks of the Isar and, since no one knew what to call him, he was buried in an unmarked grave. Having never been known, he could not be forgotten.

some new belt of astreroids-- Kulp-- Kul..--

I think the name you're after might be the Kuiper belt.

Although I knew the name, a Google search came up with around 11,300 hits, so I couldn't be bothered checking them out.

Folks, the quest has ended! I popped "Neanderthal spelling change" in Google and got a load of hits with excerpts and discussions addressing the question directly, as well as some interesting looks at German orthography ala the TH/T change. So there it is for anyone who is interested. I'm through the first 6 hits, and when I surmise the most concise and informative I'll post it here to wrap this up.

I think the name you're after might be the Kuiper belt. Although I knew the name, a Google search came up with around 11,300 hits, so I couldn't be bothered checking them out.

Given that you were exploring an asteroid belt, I would have expected the hits to demand your attention more than this, Max.

Given that you were exploring an asteroid belt, I would have expected the hits to demand your attention more than this, Max.

You're right of course, but I was distracted by trying to work a pun in to the subject line.

You're right of course, but I was distracted by trying to work a pun in to the subject line.

And a good one, too! And I didn't even see it. Gotta pay more attention to those subject lines - head in the cloud again...

We have ventured into an interesting synchronicity here, RhubarbCommando...since the root of Brontosaurus is "bronte," the Greek word for thunder, does that mean the Bronte Sisters are of Greek lineage? And what does that say for the temperament of these fine ladies? More importantly, what does it say about the flavor of those burgers? (By the way, it's curious that the "e" takes the umlaut in both the original Greek and the proper name...I'd have written it in, but I haven't figured out the Mark-up, yet.)

Mr. O'Neill: It appears that you, w/ just a bit of help from others, have resolved the issue you raised. However this matter has prompted me to raise a related Q about the "thal" pronuciation in German. I am quick to say that I do not know German (and I know ICLIU) but I prefer merely to raise the issue and to obtain a fuller explanation from the Board scholars. My very sketchy impression is that German speakers (and perhaps speakers of other languages as well) often have initial difficulty w/ the "th" sound in English, e.g. rendering "he threw the ball through the door" as "he true de ball true de door." For purposes of illustration, the "sh" sound may present similar difficulties for certain others, e.g. "shibboleth/sibbolet" or, for many American English speakers, there are difficulties pronouncing a certain French "u", e.g. "menu" menoo/menyu. My Qs then are these: 1. Is my impression correct about the difficulties German speakers have pronouncing English "th"? 2. Is there a sound in German (Deutsch) similar to that of "Th" in English? 3. If not, does that fact shed any light on the "Neanderthal" discussion? 4. If the German language does not have such a sound, what is the value of the letter "h" in, e.g., "tHal"? Is it "silent" and there for some other linguistic or identifying purpose? NicholasW, I'm counting on you and others to straighten us out. TIA

No, there's no TH sound in German, and hasn't been for a thousand years. The TH spelling only ever was pronounced T, and only occurred in some words (Thal, Thier = 'animal', a few others). I have no idea why it was in there in the first place.

"e" takes the umlaut in both the original Greek (Bronte) and the proper name
No criticism intended at all in this question. Is there a "correct" usage of the terms umlaut, diaeresis/dieresis, trema (and probably others) for the two dots which modify the vowel sound, or keep two vowel sounds separate (as in no�l)? For example, should umlaut refer to just German, or include the indicator when used in other languages? And what about "no�l"; is that an umlaut or a diaeresis or some other name?
As an aside, I had difficulty in tracking "trema" down in the normal online dictionaries, which surprised me as I know what it is and have seen and used it, though not very often perhaps. However, I found it via onelookup at
http://phrontistery.50megs.com/t.html and was fascinated by some of the other entries on the same and surrounding pages, and no, not just the rude ones.
Rod
PS I copied the � from character map. ALT+0235 produces the hash/number/pound (yet another thread?) symbol #.

Technically the word umlaut refers to the sound change in a front vowel such as a, o or u when the speaker is anticipating a following back vowel. Di�resis refers to the mark itself for whatever purpose it is used. Use of the word umlaut to refer to the mark is probably a little sloppy, but the word di�resis sounds too much like some sort of unspeakable and extremely unpleasant disease to the native English speaker and is therefore not as widely used as it should be.

The TH spelling only ever was pronounced T... I have no idea why it was in there in the first place.

Possibly to indicate an aspirated t. There's no particular reason that th should represent the � or � sounds; it would be like using bh to represent the v sound.

Technically the word umlaut refers to the sound change in a front vowel such as a, o or u when the speaker is anticipating a following back vowel. Di�resis refers to the mark itself for whatever purpose it is used.

The history of the di�resis in German orthography is an interesting one. Before I get myself into trouble, perhaps I should amend that to say "the history...as I understand it." The German (individual) doesn't speak of a di�resis at all, but of a distinct vowel. To our a, o, u he pairs ae, oe, ue, respectively, where "e" is the "back vowel" represented by the di�resis. In fact, the back vowel was originally represented in print with a distinct character, "e." Perhaps for reasons of economy, as time went by, the e was joined to the vowel preceding it in a ligature, (as are a and e in "di�resis"). The e then became smaller and migrated to the top of the preceding vowel, facing upwards. This, in turn, was abbreviated to something resembling a tilde (~), but drawn with flourish--I believe the 'cups' each contained a dot. Finally the tilde-shape was dropped and all that remained were the dots.

On the matter of the three additional vowels, in fact they are, of course, diphthongs, and German has no more than the five vowels available to any language. It is therefore tempting to dismiss them as vowels, altogether. It is interesting to note, however, (and I speak as a singer, not as a linguist) that speakers of American English, at least, also refer to diphthongs as vowels. The common pronunciation of the series "a e i o u" is something like this: a=ei; e=i; i=ai; o=ou; u=ua (where the 'a' is very short). So that you might say-with a wink-that have only one vowel, and we misspell it.

In German handwriting, the umlaut was an "e" above the vowel, the "e" being two short close vertical lines just like the regular written "e", but much smaller. When the type for umlaut is not available, a clumsy althernative is "ae" etc.

inselpeter contends: On the matter of the three additional vowels, in fact they are, of course, diphthongs

This is not quite true as *I understand it. They are vowels unto themselves. The fact that descriptions to English speakers of the production of them involves reference to two different vowels is irrelevant. The � is, in normal speech, indistinguishable from the e. The � is pronounced with the lips formed as to pronounce an o but with the tongue in more of an e position. The � is pronounced with the lips forming a u but the tongue trying to say i.

As for pure vowels vs. diphthongs, this is a matter that varies from language to language. Speaking also as a singer, I'll say that one of the more difficult tasks of an amateur choral director is that of getting singers to sing pure vowels when singing in a language such as Church Latin that has the pure vowels. Another difficult task is to get the singers to change the vowel sound in diphthongs at the right place.

From researching the discussions and articles I've found on the subject there seems to be a consensus that the TH spelling in German was dropped at the turn of the century. Although one source seemed to place the change just after WWII (but I think that's erroneous). As NicholasW pointed out, there never was a TH sound in the German language and no one seems to know why Old German used that spelling (I'm curious for the answer!)
The only word spelled with a TH in german today is THRONE (why? I don't know, it wasn't indicated). Of course this change has affected other well-known German words such as THALER/TALER, the monetary term which gave rise to our "dollar." However, it is also indicated that many Germans have ignored this rule change and continue with the TH today...in fact, The Neanderthal Museum there still uses the "H" and also in their URL: www.neanderthal.com (although I tried this and came up with a dead page?) So while technically the H is gone its usage remains a matter of choice. I wonder if purists are requiring Germans named Thomas to become Tomas?
And, by the way, if this revision back to the hard T (or "D"...two letters interchangeable in spoken-German) would carry over into English it would be no problem for me...having grown up in North-Central New Jersey I tend to harden my TH's anyway whenever dose kinds of words dat take de change show up dere in my speech!...I know I mispronounce dem but I can't help it. (South Jersey natives have their own dialect, though, called "Piney", after the Pine Barrens...a sort of localized Southern twang).

Another question: Why do Celtic dialectics tend to harden the TH in English? i.e. Irish..."Ting" for "Thing"?

I suspected the term "umlaut" would trigger some reaction and speculation. As I mentioned I studied German, and
so "umlaut" as the term for that pronuciation mark is the easiest and most identifiable for me (and for many other folks it seems). But is it proper? No. I also studied linguistics in college and there is an internationally accepted phonetic alphabet where each of these punctuation marks has a specific name to prevent confusion. But that was a while ago...and I can never remember those off the top of my head. I guess I should dig out the old text and refresh, it would be helpful on this site. But "umlaut" is just a convenient, lazier way for identifying the mark...but, on the other hand, it works. I don't think if I used the proper terminology people would know what I was talking about. One of the other terms mentioned might be the accurate one, I'm just not sure...back to the books for me!

The only word spelled with a TH in german today is THRONE

Just on the Home page of German Yahoo, I found three words with "th": Bibliotheken,Theater, and Themen.But the "h" would be silent.

Interesting, wwh...My source for the "Throne" information is " KANSAS-L digest 1800," the second hit on the Google search. I quote: > "There is one word in German that retains the "th" sound and that is the word "Throne". This is because Kaiser Wilhelm II decreed in the early part of the last [19th] century that the "h" sound in "th" would be removed in all words except "throne." >>So that is how Neanderthal became Neandertal. >Don't ask me how it took so long for other people than Germans to use it that way. >>"Throne" retains the spelling, but not the sound, Fred. Standard German doesn't have the English "th" sound at all, and never did. The German orthographic reform of 1904 wasn't really all that successful, either, even in Germany. Today, almost 100 years later, Deutschmarken can still be made there by selling computer programs which have the single purpose of catching uses of "old spelling." In fact, the URL of the Neanderthal Museum in Germany is itself www.neanderthal.com. I'm not sure the Austrians and Swiss have ever adopted that particular decreed change. Only in France does it seem possible to dictate spelling rules with any confidence they will be followed. Of course, the Kaiser was the son of Queen Victoria's first child, Vicky (also Victoria), and is reputed to have spoken much better English than his cousin George V of England. That might have something to do with his desire to "anglicize" German spellings. That's what my German professor thought, and we were marked down in his class for using "new" spellings." Unquote. (This is the best capsule explanation for all of this I've found)

So, evidently, there is a huge ambivalence in Germany, itself, about this...perhaps the editors of the site you quoted are adherents of the old spelling, ignoring the decree?
If anyone wants to confirm this source here is the URL (if it fits):

http://www.ukans.edu/~medieval/kansas-1/2000/20000901/msg00024.html

Inselpeter contends: On the matter of the three additional vowels, in fact they are, of course, diphthongs. This is not quite true as *I understand it.

Right. I need to hold my posts until after my morning coffee. [audible sighs of relief emoticon] Pronouncing the letters in question with eight or ten cups behind me now, I form no diphthong.