I just managed to find my way into the Chat with Richard Lederer and asked him if any of his puns had ever failed due to differences in usage bewtween countries. Part of his reply surprised me. He said:"For example, any joke that relied on the line "smart as a whip" wouldn't work in the UK because the folks there don't use "smart" to mean "intelligent."
This really surprised me, as many of my UK friends use "smart" in that way. Obviously, I would not expect ordinary speakers of any variant of English to be au fait with another variant's usage. However, the fact that Dr. Lederer is a usage editor for a major dictionary, makes me wonder if his response is more proof of the astonishing insularity (nod-to-tsuwm-emoticon) of US English speakers?
Dear Max: Just for fun, I went to UK Yahoo, found Cambridge English Dictionary, and it gave smart the way I am used to using it.
Dear Max: Just for fun, I went to UK Yahoo, found Cambridge English Dictionary, and it gave smart the way I am used to using it.
Thanks, Dr. Bill, tat's my point exactly. How could a usage editor for a dictionary not know that? Or, rather, does the fact that a usage editor for a dictionary did not know that indicate that the gap between the two main Englishes is now a gaping chasm that even the exceptionally learned do not cross?
How very odd. 'Smart' doesn't strike me as in any way an Americanism. I wasn't aware of any usage difference. It's just another everyday synonym, intelligent = smart = clever.
Perhaps it's not the word of first choice, I don't know; I'd say someone was intelligent, as the most neutral. I use 'clever' to mean intelligent but it also has a possible pejorative connotation of overly-clever; 'smart' is open to the same objection: you can reprimand someone 'Don't be clever!' or 'Stop being smart!'. I assume these connotations are US also. But the basic meaning is (as far as I'm aware), just 'intelligent', and is a natural word for it here.
It doesn't strike me as parallel to either of these cases: (i) Two words, both used in both countries, but each preferring one. So 'frock' and 'dress' both used and understood, but US would usually choose 'dress', UK 'frock'. (ii) One word, primary sense different in each country, but both senses understood in both. So UK 'mad' = insane, but also understood as angry*; US conversely.
Perhaps my second paragraph means it's actually of type (i) but I'm no longer as sensitive to non-UK usage as I used to be.
* This formerly said crazy, which was a typo -- I meant angry, of course.
"Dress" would now be my word of choice (in UK) over "Frock" which sounds old fashioned (and I'm not young). Is this a regional, class, age, difference? Or just personal?
"smart" with no context would mean neat and tidy to me, but within context could mean "clever" with no awkwardness, and no connotations. "Don't be smart with me" = "Don't be clever with me" with no difference.
Ro* Ward
There is one informal BE usage of smart that is not used in AE:
A:Did you get the tickets for the concert?
B:Yeah!
A:Smart! (meaning 'Excellent' or 'good job')
'Smart as a whip' ('bright as a button'?), seems pretty obvious, even though I like 'quick as a whip'.
Yo, Ro, I'm with you exactly on this.
i) "Brilliant," however, *is* used differently, no?
ii) re: dress/frock: Do UK wives tell their husbands to shut the frock up?
What about "smartypants"? For me, it refers to a person who is too clever for their own good, and cheeky to boot.
Would that be mainly US or British English?
<<and cheeky to boot>>
Marianna,
You've given me another excuse to bite my tongue.
David
Brilliant means "very clever" or "very good" to me. "My son is brilliant, he can do long multiplication in his head". "The band were brilliant, they played all the oldies"
Is this different from US usage?
Do UK wives tell their husbands to shut the frock up?
No, they would say something like "Darling, please unbutton my frock, and drop it gently to the floor. And if I ever catch you wearing it again...!"
Ro* Ward
"Darling, please unbutton my frock, and drop it gently to the floor. And if I ever catch you wearing it again...!" Oh, Ron/b/y--oh, D!--RoD, how funny!
I have to stick my US'n (I do like that abbreviation) preference in again, though we have done this before:
The band
was brilliant.
It was brilliant.
Your way makes so much sense, but just sounds wrong, wrong, wrong to me.
In American usage, I'd say it's very rare to hear the word "brilliant" in the sense of "very good."
In fact, just seeing "That band was brilliant!" in writing makes think think of a British accent.
(I'm also having an image of Basil Fawlty, screaming "Brilliant!" at the top of his lungs, meaning "Great idea!")
Smart I use as "bright" and "intelligent"
But, also aware of its meaning as a stinging sensation one gets with a dermal abrasion.
Common put down in my youth centered on that meaning.
"She's very smart."
"Yeah, where the skin's off!"
Also, when, say, someone has a coordinated ensemble I'd say "You look very smart." Which would be taken as meaning the entire look makes a particularly good impression.
The phrase is not heard often but the meaning is clear and the person to whom it is addressed knows exactly what's meant and is pleased.
wow
I've often heard smart to mean the initial feeling of a stinging or burning hurt. A pain that comes on really quickly, like carpet burn as an example. If the pain stays then it no longer smarts but aches, or whatever other description pains have.
"You look really smart in that suit" has fallen out of use. I would say that it was mostly said in my parent's generation (over 50).
To respond to initial post...Max, perhaps he didn't give you the best example with smart but I can understand what he was talking about.
Just this week we discussed blinkers/blinders. If a guy made a joke and said a person didn't see what was coming because he had his "blinkers on" NOBODY in Québec would get it because they would automatically think the guy was in his car and had his turning lights on.
"Dress" would now be my word of choice (in UK) over "Frock" which sounds old fashioned
What about the diference between BE and AE in the meaning of pants? It is my understanding that in the UK, if one goes into a shop and asks to see pants, one is directed to underwear instead of trousers, as would happen in the USA. Also, the streamlined fairings around aircraft wheels are spats in the UK, and pants in the USA, where the term "spats" is archaic. And, as we all know, we can't have archaic and eat it too.
Now, not being a transvestite, don't one of you Brits call me a frocking idiot!
The dictionary gives the first meaning of smart as the sensation of pain, it then gives smart as slang for intelligent.
The teachers gave lazy students blows to various parts of the anatomy. First their backsides smarted, then their brains learned how to avoid punishment, and the students then were "smart."
in the USA, the term "spats" is archaic
Oh Gawd! You're making me feel old, *old, OLD!!!!!
Could not find "spats" on the Shorter OED-CD or through Atomica.
However, Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language (1978) has "spats" defined as noun (Colloq)<spatterdash - a legging a gaiterlike covering for the instep and ankle.
My Dad wore spats which were made of a soft felt in colors to compliment or contrast with the shoe/trouser color. They buttoned on the outside of the instep and protected the shoe top and ankle and provided some warmth in winter.
Only place I see them now is in "period" movie dramas.
But there is no other word that is specific to them
Is it because spats are no longer in fashion that the word has become archaic?
That is until some designer revives spats as a fashion statement or fad?
wow
DELETED: Garynamy does it better !!
<<Darling>>
Ro, you are a trip!
<<If a guy made a joke and said a person didn't see what was coming because he had his "blinkers on" NOBODY in Québec would get it because they would automatically think the guy was in his car and had his turning lights on. >>
Because Quebecs have their blinkers on.
In reply to:
One word, primary sense different in each country, but both senses understood in both. So UK 'mad' = insane, but also understood as crazy; US conversely.
What is the difference between "insane" and "crazy?" My American Heritage defines "insane" as "afflicted with insanity" and "crazy" as "affected with madness; insane." Other than "insane" being a more formal term, the two terms are used interchangeably in the US.
two terms are used interchangeably in the US.
But don't you find that insane is usually used to describe somebody who did something crazy AND morally bad.
I most often hear crazy used to describe somebody doing something irresponsible or plain stupid but not evil or mean...like "Mike is crazy if he thinks he can jump over twelve cars with his motorcycle"
Webster's New World gives no etymology for crazy, but def 1 = having flaws or cracks. The entry above this is craze, which means to break or shatter from ME. It would appear crazy literally means cracked, a word we also like to use for crazy.
Sane, L. sanus or healthy. Insane is 'not sane,' that is, not healthy, although not necessarilly cracked.
Speaking of which, what of "inflammable," which has come to mean 'not inflammable?' (as well as the related "flammable")
In reply to:
So UK 'mad' = insane, but also understood as crazy; US conversely.
I assumed when I read this that crazy was a typo for angry.
Bingley
AARGH!! Yes, it was a typo for 'angry'. Well spotted!
Just ignore 'crazy'. It was never mentioned, okay?
inflammable and flammable are still synonyms where I come from.
the sunshine warrior
The word pissed is used in the UK to signify drunk, whereas it means angry in the US. For angry, in the UK, we would use 'pissed off'. Another mad/crazy/angry issue?
For me (without ref to lexicon), 'smart' means:
1. (adj.) Well turned out
2. (adj.) Clever (not necessarily intelligent)
3. (v.) Hurt in a stinging/burning way, but fading away, unlike an ache.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
My psychiatrist friend tells me you are sane or insane there is no grey area.
She maintains the other words are just ways to indicate aberrant or anti-social behaviour among sane people.
IOW - You can't be a little bit insane any more than you can be a little bit pregnant!
You either is or you ain't.
We are talking colloquial vs the true definition. Right? NOT the legal definition used in US courts. OK?
wow
Crazy or not
My friend who is a psychologist and who is employed by the court system, tells me that the word "insane", or any equivalent word or term, has no medical meaning -- it is a legal term only, which differs from place to place, and from time to time, as to exactly what constitutes "insanity". In medical terms, the whole concept of mental illness vs. mental health, normality vs. aberration (basically a statistical condition) etc. is a very large and complicated affair with, often, no fixed boundaries or norms.
The Journal of Psychiatric Nomenclature endorses the phrase Just Plain Nuts.
The word pissed is used in the UK to signify drunk, whereas it means angry in the US. For angry, in the UK, we would use 'pissed off'.In QC it depends upon the way you use it.
I got pissed on Saturday = drunk
I am so pissed (straight upset face) = angry
I am so pissed (goofy grin) = drunk
I am pissed off = angry
Piss off as an expletive means f**k off
Piss off as a verb means you made somebody angry
Piss off the bridge = guys showing off again
nflammable and flammable are still synonyms where I come from
Pet peeve of my mom's who says they came up with "flammable" because people thought "inflammable" meant "not flammable." [bad pun intentionally omitted]
[bad pun intentionally omitted]
Don't EVER do that again.
wow
Bel, you had the post about the difference between pissed on and pissed off-- but do you know why piss is yellow and "cum" is white?
So a drunk (or substitute ethic group of choice) will know whether he is coming or going...
and curiously-- in Japanese-- one uses Going as the term for an organism, and coming as the term for uninations-- proving that in japan a western doesn't understand anything and never knows whether he is coming or going!
and in french--my meager french allows me to count to 5, and say "in the name of the Father, the son,and the Holy Ghost, Amen-- Hail Mary... i mangle the days of the week, and months of year.... and certainly don't know any street slang--So do french men come-- or go (or rather in which room do they come or go!) Or would you rather not say?
who says they came up with "flammable" because people thought "inflammable" meant "not flammable."
The Oxford Concise English Grammar gives the same explanation for the origin of "flammable", and adds that this linguistic faux pas is redeemed by its usefulness in potentially dangerous situations.
In reply to:
So do french men come-- or go
No idea, but Indonesian men keluar which means exit, come out, or go out according to context(it's a compound literally meaning "to the outside").
Bingley
So do french men come-- or go (or rather in which room do they come or go!) Or would you rather not say?Given that they allegedly undergo 'the little death', I'd say they were going, going... gong!
cheer
the sunshine warrior
Flammable/Inflammable
The International Maritime Dangerous Goods Code, which is the Bible for the transport by sea of hazardous materials, begins the section on flammable materials like this:
"CLASS 3 - FLAMMABLE Liquids
1. PROPERTIES
Definition of flammable* liquids
[footnote] *"Inflammable" has the same meaning as "flammable".
Since the IMDG regulates all oceangoing transport of hazardous goods, and matters of very large import and many millions of dollars hang on its provisions, they take no chances on anyone not knowing about either of the two expresssions which mean the same thing. This is, of course, the way lawyers use language.
the way lawyers use language... using
two words - going back to the fine old Medieval days when clerks charged by the word and the length of the word
Mav adds: using two words - going back to the fine old Medieval days when clerks charged by the word and the length of the word
This goes back even further. In the dawning days of the English language as it met up with Latin in the days of Early West Saxon, et al., translations from Latin would require two English words to bracket the meaning of a Latin word that didn't quite match any one word in English.
That's interesting, F; have you got any ref you could pass on? I've only seen interlinear glosses for most translations from that period. Thanks.
mav would know: you got any ref you could pass on?
I believe mention is made of it in Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Grammar and probably in another one I have lying next my bed of a more recent vintage. I'll get back... No wait a minute, maybe I can amazon it. Nope, the likely candidates are all out of print so they don't show the cover. I'll have to get back to you. Lemme call myself up and leave me a message so I don't forget. There, now I gots no excuse.
Insane/crazy
You also have the phenomenon which occurred after the Norman invasion, when a French/Latin word would be used alongside an Anglo-Saxon word. The most famous example of this is Cranmer's phrase, "We pray and beseech Thee", 'pray' being from French 'prier' (or the Norman-French equivalent) and 'beseech' from A.S. 'besecen', both meaning basically the same thing.
Then there are the pairs most famous in the culinary area, calf/veal, swine/pork, sheep/mutton, cow/beef etc.
and cob-- as in cobweb-- from cobbie(s)=spiders.
curiously Honey-- was not supplanted by the old indo-europian word (as found in most europian languages-- a m with a vowel, and an d or t or s and an other vowel.. ie. mede (italian i think) and melitas (wrong, wrong, wrong-- but i'm in a field office with not a dictionary in sight!) but close to that for the greek--(Nicholas-- or Inselpeter or any of a long list,) --correct me, please.. and maybe a list of the words used for honey...
in english the only word that uses the same root is mead--( honeywine)- (following the same pattern as cow/beef)
Definitely PIE, Helen. In Hindi, madhu is the word for wine - also therefore meaning something very sweet (and also metaphorically - so hence, the local tavern for wine and so on). It is also therefore used as a (not too) common name for children - both male and female.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
Speaking of ancient beverages, there was a news item recently about a golden drinking cup, which on testing was said to show that the owner had mixed wine and beer plus honey. I suspect that the beverages had been consumed separately, without washing the cup.
<<Speaking of ancient beverages>>
Have you read about the Greek vessel wreck they've under two miles of water in the Mediteranean? It was a large cargo ship, as evidenced by the hundreds or thousands of amphorae (?) of wine strewn in heaps in the area. "They" were using a remote-controlled robot to search for a lost submarine when the discovered it. The key importance of the discovery is that it seems to disprove the long-stanging assumption that the tales of high-seas expeditions surviving ancient Greece were untrue and that the ancient mariners never lost sight of land. The story was reported in the New York Times this week, and I'm sure it's still available on that site
http://www.nytimes.comThis is Binky, wishing you a pleasant from the rings of Saturn, signing off.
You also have the phenomenon which occurred after the Norman invasion, when a French/Latin word would be used alongside an Anglo-Saxon word. The most famous example of this is Cranmer's phrase, "We pray and beseech Thee", 'pray' being from French 'prier' (or the Norman-French equivalent) and 'beseech' from A.S. 'besecen', both meaning basically the same thing."
"And, sigh, we are still trying to get rid of the consequent redundant doublets -- and even triplets! -- which pepper legal writing.
Clear and unambiguous
Null, void and of no effect
I give, bequeath and devise
I edit the redundancies in materials which Judges use in their opinions, and I'll be damned if they don't put them back in more often than not. What, I ask them, is the difference between clear statutory language and unambiguous statutory language? A glaze covers their eyes; they don't even realize what they are doing; they just follow a habitual linguistic rhythm.
on my way home from dropping my daughter off at school today, the radio traffic reporter advised that "there is some kind of problem on the 405 freeway, according to a vaguely nebulous CHP report". did he mean it was ever-so-slightly unclear???
which reminds me.... isn't "witty repartee" redundant?? it seems i always hear the two words juxtaposed.
In reply to:
In Hindi, madhu is the word for wine
While in Indonesian madu means honey (the eatable kind rather than an endearment). Indonesian has taken quite a few words from Sanskrit.
Bingley
Bingley
Am I right in presuming that the root language for Indonesian is a kind of proto-Chinese? No matter how much the vocabulary may have been influenced by the colonists from South India during the glory days of the Vijayanagara empire - [digression] which fact (Borobudur, Angkor Wat, and other South East Asian monuments, the storylines of the shadow-puppet plays etc) gives lie to the egregious "India-nationalist" email I have twice had to receive over the past few years that claims 'India' has never in its history invaded or colonised another country...[/digression]
cheer
the sunshine warrior
Indonesian is an Austronesian language. Austronesian languages are spoken from Madagascar in the West to Easter island in the East and from Taiwan in the North to New Zealand in the South (hi Max and Cap K), but not for the most part in Papua New Guinea and Australia. According to who you believe the Austronesian languages may have spread out from Taiwan (some of the native Taiwanese languages are members) or from the northern part of the Philippines. Either way Indonesian is not related to the Chinese languages any more than it's related to English.
Whether the Indian influences in Indonesia stemmed from some sort of political colonisation or from a combination of merchants indulging in a bit of cultural colonisation of the indigenous elite is again a matter of who you believe. There's not enough evidence to be sure either way.
Bingley