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Posted By: Hydra Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 10:42 AM
Is there a word for a moment of dramatic silence in the middle of a piece of music?

The effect is used in a lot of modern music, but is by no means new. There is three seconds of breathtaking silence, for example, in the otherwise tempestuous Sind Blitze sind Donner in Wolken verschwinden chorus of Bach's Matthäuspassion (quod vide! quod vide!).
Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 11:56 AM
well, there's the










Grand Pause.
Posted By: Faldage Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 01:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Hydra
Is there a word for a moment of dramatic silence in the middle of a piece of music?

The effect is used in a lot of modern music, but is by no means new. There is three seconds of breathtaking silence, for example, in the otherwise tempestuous Sind Blitze sind Donner in Wolken verschwinden chorus of Bach's Matthäuspassion (quod vide! quod vide!).


Christmas theme in a Holy Week piece?
Posted By: Hydra Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 01:50 PM
In fast-paced and tempestuous music, it's a little like the eye of the hurricane. First an abrupt stop, then a short silence, then an explosive recapitulation.

>Grand Pause

I knew it would be something like that.
Posted By: Hydra Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 01:53 PM
Quote:
Christmas theme in a Holy Week piece?


Not sure what your question is, but if you're interested...

Quote:
Sind Blitze, sind Donner in Wolken verschwunden?
[Hath lightning, hath thunder in clouds fully vanished?]

Eröffne den feurigen Abgrund, o Hölle,
[Lay open thy fire's raging chasm, O hell, then,]

Zertrümmre, verderbe, verschlinge, zerschelle
[Now ruin, demolish, devour, now shatter]

Mit plötzlicher Wut
[With suddenmost wrath]

Den falschen Verräter, das mördrische Blut!
[The lying betrayer, that murderous blood!]
Posted By: Faldage Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 01:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Hydra


Quote:
Sind Blitze, sind Donner in Wolken verschwunden?
[Hath lightning, hath thunder in clouds fully vanished?]


Not to mention Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, and Cupid. And I would have translated verschwunden as 'dashed away.'



Posted By: dalehileman Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 03:27 PM
Hi Hydra, maybe it's a kind of "rest," which I found as follows

http://onelook.com/?w=*&loc=revfp2&clue=abrupt+pause+music
Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 05:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: Hydra


Quote:
Sind Blitze, sind Donner in Wolken verschwunden?
[Hath lightning, hath thunder in clouds fully vanished?]


Not to mention Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, and Cupid. And I would have translated verschwunden as 'dashed away.'


heh

Posted By: Hydra Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 05:45 PM
Quote:
And I would have translated verschwunden as 'dashed away.'


I copied what I pasted above from the PDF booklet to the Hänssler edition of the Complete Works of Bach. Take it up with Alison Dobson-Ottmers, and do not be intimidated by her native German-English bilingualism and battery of degrees in translation studies.

But perhaps this is a joke. If so, you have the German sense of humour, if not the Sprachgefühl. :P
Posted By: Faldage Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 05:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Hydra


But perhaps this is a joke.


Ya think mehbe?
Posted By: BranShea Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/17/08 07:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: Hydra


Quote:
Sind Blitze, sind Donner in Wolken verschwunden?
[Hath lightning, hath thunder in clouds fully vanished?]

Not to mention Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, and Cupid. And I would have translated verschwunden as 'dashed away.
Dashing!
Posted By: BranShea Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/18/08 04:17 PM
But as for dramatic silences in music, isn't the silence (the "grandest" pauze of all) the one between the very last note of a great performance and the applause?


Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/18/08 05:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: Hydra


But perhaps this is a joke.


Ya think mehbe?


Perhaps Hydra is unfamiliar with the poem.
Posted By: Hydra Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/19/08 04:46 AM
Ja, ja! Ein guter witz!
Posted By: Alex Williams Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/19/08 08:35 PM
I would use the word caesura to describe a significant pause in the music, essentially a rest of undefined duration -- that is of a duration at the discretion of the conductor.

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/19/08 10:08 PM
the caesura, is usually shorter than a...


grand pause.
Posted By: The Pook Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/21/08 02:55 AM
interlude?
Posted By: Jackie Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/21/08 03:15 AM
Hey, Pookie, welcome! You're only the second (identified) Tasmanian we've had on here. (paulb, are you still around?)
Posted By: Hydra Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/21/08 04:18 AM
I found it on YouTube if you'd like to hear it with your own ears.

Sind Blitze, sind Donner in Wolken verschwunden starts at 5.49. The "grand pause/caesura" is at 6.23.

Enjoy.
Posted By: The Pook Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/21/08 04:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Jackie
Hey, Pookie, welcome! You're only the second (identified) Tasmanian we've had on here. (paulb, are you still around?)


Thanks for the welcome. Really? Actually I'm an ex-patriate Sydneysider, but have had the operation to graft the second head and extra fingers on.

Pookie is the name of a character in a children's book. I'm THE Pook, which is different, like Winnie THE Pooh, but you can call me that if you like, I don't mind.
Posted By: Jackie Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/21/08 03:33 PM
you can call me that if you like Thanks--I just thought it sounded friendly. And anybody from Tasmania gets an automatic yea/yay from me! paulb's a Lancastrian, himself. Must be a nice place to move to.
Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/21/08 04:09 PM
I know it well; have sung it many times. Well, the alto part in the chorus.
Posted By: AnnaStrophic To the Ozman in Tasmania - 02/21/08 04:10 PM
Welcome, Pookaroonie! I'm enjoying your posts.
Posted By: Jackie Re: To the Ozman in Tasmania - 02/21/08 06:19 PM
Yeah, they are great, aren't they? But... Pookaroonie?! [raised eyebrow e]
Posted By: The Pook Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/22/08 12:43 AM
Or Launcestonian. I live about 65km (40 miles) from there.

Interesting how people in whatever forum I join just can't seem to resist creating cutesie diminutives from my name!

...and interesting how the word 'diminutive' refers to making something bigger, isn't it? That is, adding a suffix or prefix (or both) in order to show affection or familiarity. I wonder if this qualifies as one of those words with antonynomous usages discussed in that other thread?

Nobody ever guesses where my handle comes from either. But it's interesting hearing the conjectures as to its etymology.

This is my 25th post, do I get an award or something?
Posted By: Jackie Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/22/08 02:24 AM
Nobody ever guesses where my handle comes from Kipling?

Your designation changes at 25 posts. Woo.
Posted By: The Pook Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/22/08 02:34 AM
Yep, I'm now a newbie (blows toy trumpet to celebrate). No it's nothing so grand as a literary allusion.
Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/22/08 01:20 PM
Originally Posted By: The Pook
Nobody ever guesses where my handle comes from either.


you're a non-aspiring ghost?
Posted By: Myridon Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/22/08 05:07 PM
a Xanth fan?
Posted By: Aramis Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/22/08 09:11 PM
Originally Posted By: The Pook

Interesting how people in whatever forum I join just can't seem to resist creating cutesie diminutives from my name!


Must have heard Pookita by now but have any from Japan called you Pook-chan?

[Hoping to have guessed right about being a girlie.]
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/22/08 11:26 PM
interesting how the word 'diminutive' refers to making something bigger, isn't it?

Diminutive affixes indicate smallness (and in some languages, connotations of cuteness): e.g., Italian or Spanish -ino, German -chen. Augmentative affixes indicate bigness (and in some languages, pejorative connotations): e.g., Italian -one.
Posted By: The Pook Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 12:45 AM
Originally Posted By: etaoin
Originally Posted By: The Pook
Nobody ever guesses where my handle comes from either.


you're a non-aspiring ghost?


Clever pun. No The Pook is not a non-aspirant non-aspirated Spook!
Posted By: The Pook Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 01:03 AM
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
interesting how the word 'diminutive' refers to making something bigger, isn't it?

Diminutive affixes indicate smallness (and in some languages, connotations of cuteness): e.g., Italian or Spanish -ino, German -chen. Augmentative affixes indicate bigness (and in some languages, pejorative connotations): e.g., Italian -one.


Yes, that's interesting. Or like -shka -ski etc in Slavic languages.

The point I was making was that a 'diminutive' denotes not just the affix itself, but the resulting word, which is bigger than the word was before the affix was affixed. As in "Pookaroonie is a diminutive of Pook." It's an example of definition by usage. A diminutive has come to mean an affectionate nickname or something similar.

Regarding affixes and suffixes, I was always taught that an affix was a prefix and therefore the opposite of a suffix, which is added to the end of a word. But looking at the nearest dictionary to hand it seems that a prefix or a suffix is merely a subset of an affix, which is the term used to describe any addition to a word? How do others use those terms? And if this is so, does an affix include letters added in the middle of a word? Which would be called what? An infix?

This is getting too far off topic, so I have reposted it in the Wordplay and Fun section - perhaps best to reply there - sorry for hijacking the music question.
Posted By: tsuwm Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 01:08 AM
>An infix?

yes
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: your stirabout is on the hob - 02/23/08 01:35 AM
The Pook

I thought your nom-de-ouaibbe had something more to do with Puck or Pooka (Irish Púca), Kipling even, but then I am know to let my fancy fun away with my diminutive wit.
Posted By: Jackie Re: your stirabout is on the hob - 02/23/08 01:48 AM
diminutive wit As in, half-? [EG]
Posted By: Sparteye Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 02:03 AM
Originally Posted By: The Pook
...I'm THE Pook ... like Winnie THE Pooh, but you can call me that if you like, I don't mind.


OK! "THE POOH" it is.
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 02:05 AM
The point I was making was that a 'diminutive' denotes not just the affix itself, but the resulting word, which is bigger than the word was before the affix was affixed.

Yes, affixes are one way that (inflectional) languages go about created new words from old ones. In linguistics this is usually called derivational morphology to keep it separate from desinences which usually indicate case, number, gender, and other grammatical categories. The diminutive refers not to the affix or the word, but usually the referent.

An infix?

There are circumfixes, too.
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: your stirabout is on the hob - 02/23/08 02:06 AM
As in, half-?

Not quite synonymous, but that's kinda what.
Posted By: The Pook Re: your stirabout is on the hob - 02/23/08 03:20 AM
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
The Pook

I thought your nom-de-ouaibbe had something more to do with Puck or Pooka (Irish Púca), Kipling even, but then I am know to let my fancy fun away with my diminutive wit.


hahahahaha. I'm having fun with this. The real reason I am The Pook is much more mundane and unguessable than this.

um... Pardon MY diminutive wit, but what's a nom-de-ouaibbe? Never heard of a ouaibbe, but then I don't speak French.
Posted By: The Pook Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 03:33 AM
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
The point I was making was that a 'diminutive' denotes not just the affix itself, but the resulting word, which is bigger than the word was before the affix was affixed.

The diminutive refers not to the affix or the word, but usually the referent.


Well, it refers also to the word in one sense, as in the word pookaroonie being a diminutive of the word pook. But the meaning of the word diminutive (in this context) comes from the referent if that's what you mean. It's called a diminutive not because it diminishes the word, but because it diminishes the person the word stands for. A nickname diminishes a person's social standing. It makes them lesser in relation to you.

A diminutive can be formed by changing or subtracting from a word as well by adding an affix. Bill is a diminutive of William. But Billy is a further diminutive of Bill.

I've copied this reply to the new thread, best to continue this interesting discussion there maybe?
http://wordsmith.org/board/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post173918
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: your stirabout is on the hob - 02/23/08 03:38 AM
what's a nom-de-ouaibbe?

Bad transcription in vacan French of English web. Avatar, user id or name. That sort of thing.
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 03:43 AM
as in the word pookaroonie being a diminutive of the word pook

I'd read this as pookeroonie is the diminutive form of Pook.

A nickname diminishes a person's social standing. It makes them lesser in relation to you.

I'm sorry you took it that way. As mentioned before, a diminutive is often used as an affectionate hypocoristic form. It increases (or augments) your standing within the social group. Though, I'm sure if you take offense to a nickname, folks here-abouts will cease using it.
Posted By: latishya Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 03:59 AM
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
as in the word pookaroonie being a diminutive of the word pook

I'd read this as pookeroonie is the diminutive form of Pook.

A nickname diminishes a person's social standing. It makes them lesser in relation to you.

I'm sorry you took it that way. As mentioned before, a diminutive is often used as an affectionate hypocoristic form. It increases (or augments) your standing within the social group.


Thanks for saying this. It expresses what I was thinking when I read Pook's words.
Posted By: Jackie Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 04:01 AM
a diminutive is often used as an affectionate 'deed. :-)

[complete and total aside: I'm sitting here absolutely jamming to Split Enz' Spellbound. I looked up more of the discography/lyrics today; no wonder I couldn't understand this word: Taniwha!]
Posted By: The Pook Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 04:07 AM
Originally Posted By: Jackie
a diminutive is often used as an affectionate 'deed. :-)

[complete and total aside: I'm sitting here absolutely jamming to Split Enz' Spellbound. I looked up more of the discography/lyrics today; no wonder I couldn't understand this word: Taniwha!]


New Zealandish?
Posted By: latishya Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 04:45 AM
Originally Posted By: Jackie
[color:#6600CC] Taniwha!


In Aotearoa, they even have the power to delay the building of roads.
Posted By: Jackie Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/23/08 04:02 PM
New Zealandish? That's them! I went to see Tim Finn in concert last week.

In Aotearoa, they even have the power to delay the building of roads. I read that! I wish now that I'd looked that up before going to the concert: the young man playing guitar with him was at least part Maaori; MAN that kid could riff!
Posted By: belMarduk Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/24/08 04:39 PM
>>>Affectionate diminutive

Aye, I think most diminutive use is affectionate.

A diminutive used to demean or diminish someone is very evident; there is no misconstruing it.

For example, Fred and William are in an argument that is getting heated. Fred, in an agressive, angry or baiting tone says, "listen up Billy boy" when he would generally refer to William as Bill. In that case, Billy boy is a diminutive.


If you're very sensitive about it Pook, you might want to let us know since the moniker you chose is one that invites cute add-ons and you seemed genial enough, so it is not surprising that folks would greet you affectionately.

Also, throwing out a challenge as to discovering the provenence of the name seemed playful, and an invitation to cameraderie. Again, if we were mistaken, then it would be good to know.
Posted By: The Pook Re: Dramatic silence in music - 02/24/08 10:52 PM
1. No I'm not sensitive. It is after all, not my name, but just a handle, and yes it was a playful gesture.
2. You misunderstood what I said about diminutives applying to the referent by diminishing them socially. That's not the same as demeaning someone. Even an affectionate nickname reduces, minimises, the social distance between you and the one the diminutive is applied to. It puts them on the same level as you. Whether this is rude or not depends on the ACTUAL relationship between the people. If you were to go up to the President of the USA (assuming you are not known to him) and say "Hey Georgie baby!" it probably would be taken as inappropriate.

But let me make it quite clear - you may desecrate my handle in any way you wish and it won't upset me.
Posted By: twosleepy Re: Dramatic silence in music - 03/06/08 04:34 AM
You guys are so funny!

Pook, I understood your point right away, and it is funny how that works. The diminutive applied to my handle is usually "two", so it actually is smaller...

You are all welcome to guess from where mine originates (desecration optional...)! ;0)

A pause in music is called, simply, a "rest". A rest of four bars (or longer), is called "longa", but you won't hear it used much (the term, that is).
Posted By: Faldage Re: Dramatic silence in music - 03/06/08 10:39 AM
Two Sleepy People
By dawn's early light,
And too much in love
To say, "Good night."
Posted By: Jackie Re: Dramatic silence in music - 03/06/08 01:39 PM
[impressed e]
Posted By: Faldage Re: Dramatic silence in music - 03/06/08 11:44 PM
Originally Posted By: twosleepy


A pause in music is called, simply, a "rest". A rest of four bars (or longer), is called "longa", but you won't hear it used much (the term, that is).


But a rest is not necessarily a dramatic silence; it might apply only to one voice. The triangle part in Die Walküre, for example, is nothing but rests, a hyperlonga, if you will, but it hardly qualifies as a dramatic silence.
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