An it please Your Majesty, Pooh-Bah the First: I crave a boon. In all seriousness, no ribaldry intended, can you tell me if there is an etymological relationship between the word "thwart" meaning the transverse plank in a skiff on which one sits, and "twat" a vulgar word referring to the vulva .
um... no. is this a trick question?
Dear me no. I have heard sailors pronounce "thwart" without the sound of the "h", making it sound just like "twat". And I have heard "thwart" applied to the male posterior, and wondered if a long time ago it applied to both male and female posteriors.
My turn, please, tsuwm: is there a common link between
spire and spiral? (Glad you started this thread, Bill.)
>I... wondered if a long time ago it applied to both male and female posteriors.
a long time ago, probably not. this seems more like a modern <ahem> emergence, with thwart (a rower's bench or seat) perhaps affecting a U.S. dialect usage of t'wa't to mean buttocks, as a result of the pronunciation you cite. interesting, bill.
>spire and spiral
you guys are posting posers today.
there are six different nouns and three unique verbs, all spelled spire. one each, noun and verb, have the sense of "spiral" or coil.
but if you're asking if spire as in a column is related to spiral as in a coil, the answer is, I think, no -- they have different roots.
you guys are posting posers today.
I think you must have miscounted. Only one guy posted a poser in this thread. Thank you for answering mine, though.
I couldn't figure out how a straight-up-and-down spire could be related to a corkscrew shape. (By the way, I don't mind Latin or whatever when it is given as a part of an explanation of something, for ex. the root of a word.)
>>you guys are posting posers today.
>I think you must have miscounted. Only one guy posted a poser in this thread.
I think you may have misconstrued. "posting" (as in posting posers) doesn't have to be verbal.
>an etymological relationship between the word "thwart" meaning the transverse plank in a skiff on which one sits, and "twat" a vulgar word referring to the vulva
Some of the previous posts were correct with respects to Thwart (athwart), but TWAT came from and entirely different source.
TWAT
[Of obscure origin.]
1. (See quot. 1727.)
Erroneously used (after quot. 1660) by Browning Pippa Passes iv. ii. 96 under the impression that it denoted some part of a nun's attire.
1656 R. Fletcher tr. Martial ii. xliv. 104. 1660 Vanity of Vanities 50 They talk't of his having a Cardinalls Hat, They'd send him as soon an Old Nuns Twat. a1704 T. Brown Sober Slip in Dark Wks. 1711 IV. 182 A dang'rous Street, Where Stones and Twaits in frosty Winters meet. 1719 D'Urfey Pills III. 307. 1727 Bailey vol. II, Twat, pudendum muliebre. Twat-scowerer, a Surgeon or Doctor. E. Ward. 1919 E. E. Cummings Let. 18 Aug. (1969) 61 On Tuesday an Uhlan To her twat put his tool in. 1934 H. Miller Tropic of Cancer 55 A man with something between his legs that could+make her grab that bushy twat of hers with both hands and rub it joyfully. 1959 N. Mailer Advts. for Myself (1961) 101 The clothes off, the guards are driving them into the other room, and smack their hands on skinny flesh and bony flesh, it's bag a tittie and snatch a twot. 1970 G. Greer Female Eunuch 39 No woman wants to find out that she has a twat like a horse-collar. 1973 P. White Eye of Storm iii. 137 This young thing with the swinging hair and partially revealed twat.
2. A term of vulgar abuse. Cf. twit n.1 2b and cunt 2.
1929 F. Manning Middle Parts of Fortune II. xv. 383 Yes, they let a bloody twat like 'im off. 1933 M. Lowry Ultramarine i. 16 He can't help it if you're just a bloody, senseless twat. 1958 H. Williamson Love & Loveless i. 27 Looked a proper twott to me. 1969 P. Roth Portnoy's Complaint 211 Here comes another dumb and stupid remark out of that brainless twat. 1978 J. Updike Coup (1979) iii. 123 Divorce me and you'll have a slot for this new twat, what's her name. 1979 R. Fiennes Hell on Ice ix. 134 Sterns not prows, you twot.
3. U.S. dial. The buttocks.
1950 Publ. Amer. Dial. Soc. xiii. 20 Twat,+the buttocks. 1964 M. Kelly March to Gallows xii. 132, I could tell her what to do with her twat if she's frightened to sit on it.
Thwart n.
[app. a n. use (which came in after 1725) of thwart adv. and adj., having reference to the position of the rowing benches or seats athwart or across the boat. Whether its use was partly due to similarity of sound to thaught, thawt, or thought, previously applied to the same thing, is uncertain. Our latest contemporary instance of ‘thaught or thought’ is of 1721, of thoat 1697, of thout 1725, while our first of ‘thaughts or thwarts’ is of 1736, so that the appellations were continuous in use, as if the one had passed into the other. But, for the full determination of the relations between thoft, thought or thaught, and thwart, fuller evidence between 1500 and 1700 is needed. Cf. thoft, thought2.]
A seat across a boat, on which the rower sits; a rower's bench.
[1721 Bailey, Thoughts, the Rowers Seats in a Boat.] 1736 I (folio), Thaughts, v. Thwarts. Ibid., Thwarts, (a Sea Term) the boards or benches laid a-cross boats and gallies, upon which the rowers sit. 1770 Cook Voy. round World ii. x. (1773) 462 A considerable number of thwarts were laid from gunwale to gunwale. 1776 Falconer's Dict. Marine, Thwart, the seat or bench of a boat whereon the rowers sit to manage the oars. 1897 F. T. Bullen Cruise Cachalot 41 We drew each man his oar across the boat and lashed it firmly down with a piece of line spliced to each thwart.
Thanks, Rouspeteur. While the area of the body involved, and the sound suggest the possibility of a common origin, there is no record of it. I was also thinking of the analogy seen in "seat" which means the thing that supports the posterior, but is also used at times to refer to the buttocks, and the part of trousers that covers that area. So, snip this thread.
I may be waaaaay off base here, but might there be a connection with the French word "toit," meaning "roof?" The vulva does somewhat resemble a roof, having two halves that peak at the center, and the pronunciation is similar except for having no "t" at the end..
> snip this thread
well bill, that is of course the same OED stuff I read, and I'm thinking there's no real obvious reason for the buttocks sense to have developed in the U.S., and I was merely entertaining the possibility that you might be onto (or on) something.
If there was a connection, it would have been a long time ago, and just not gotten into print. But I am grateful for the information provided.
Dear Jackie: There is a relationship between spire and spiral but it is very complicated. I looked at the dictionary for half an hour and couldn't figure out any interesting way of discussing it. I have always wondered if the spiral top of a conch gave some prehistoric man an idea for a boring tool. I looked on internet for information about the chonchoid curve, but am unable to figure out why Nicomedes named this curve after the shell .
Golly gee whillikers, Dr. Bill, I'm amazed that you haven't connected all this to spirochetes in some way by now!
In reply to:
I may be waaaaay off base here, but might there be a connection with the French word "toit," meaning "roof?" The vulva does somewhat resemble a roof, having two halves that peak at the center, and the pronunciation is similar except for having no "t" at the end.
This extrapolation sounds reasonable Geoff but would only be applicable if we used, or ever used, the word toit to describe the vulva; which we do not. I will not write the names used as most are quite crude but none really resemble toit or twat.
I checked my Larousse, Petit Robert and Dictionnaire de la langue française just in case. They do not have that definition either.
Oh well, good try though.
looked on internet for information about the chonchoid curve, but am unable to figure out why Nicomedes named this curve after the shell
Okay-- what is a chonchoid curver? is it the curve that is a ratio related to "golden rectangles"?-- (i think the company Sybase uses it in there logo-- )
Its on of those math things, that i never really studied, but have come across--and the resulting spiral -- is one of those curious things that is also found in nature-- { like the sequence of numbers named after....(it is on the tip of my tongue.. Fab..?? Fib..??) 0, 1,1,2,3,5,8,13...} the curve is found in seashells, such as conch shells, and other natural forms.
Or is it something else entireley?
Thwart
Don't snip yet. I don't know what kind of sanitation arrangements there may have been in former times on ships; I imagine there were none. So if you didn't have a nice flushing head like we have today, what did you do when you had a load to dump? My guess is that your bum went over the thwart. So, if "thwart" was pronounced in a New England accent, or some English accent and came out "twaht", is that a connection (connexion)? Hmmm.
My guess is that your bum went over the thwart.
Actually, it covered a bucket (really).
And discussed in the oddly named book, "Dynamic Symmetry"
This all find and dandy but how on earth did thwart also come to mean to foil somebody`s plans, to oppose successfully? It is such an oddly spelled word, I can`t imagine two different cultures came up with the same spelling for two different things.
two different thingsLike a lot of ‘thw~’ words, this came in to the melting pot of English from Scandinavia. In this case the root word
thverr meant crossed or perverse, thence
thvert, thence
thwart. So the thing in common is that the bench is
athwartships – across the width – whilst the verb form of thwarting an action is to place an obstacle across its path.
Ain’t language wonderful?
<<how on earth did thwart also come to mean to foil somebody`s plans, to oppose successfully?>>
Just a guess: to sit athwart -- across (in front of) -- in the way = to block
IP
Mav's got it, (tho I was on the sniff)
I recently read a geology book that mentioned the "Siberian traps" where massive volcanic outpourings millions of years ago produced successive higher but smaller huge circles. The word "traps" is said to be Norwegian, and is obviously related to German "Treppe" meaning stairs. In English "trip" can mean to dance as "trip the light fantastic". I should welcome seeing others post similar word comparisons.
Taken from Burnside URL given by inselpeter:
Take pedigree, for example. It is very far from obvious that it is
etymologically derived from the crane’s foot. In Middle French pié
(pied) de grue is the foot of the crane. In early manuscripts, lines of
descent were so drawn as to suggest the footprint of a crane, and the
resemblance provided a metaphor for the relations depicted in the
diagram. Introduced into English in the 15th century, the word was
originally spelled pee-de-grew, pedegru, or pedicru.
Mentioning "Mademoiselle from Armentieres" reminded me of GI who had been in France telling me how "cherry" came to mean virginity. He spoke French very well, so that he was accepted into nice families. A French WWI soldier in one of those families told him that when the "doughboys" tried to meet French girls from nice families, they were told "Elle est cherie." Meaning "cherished" = closely guarded by their parents. This got corrupted into meaning having intact hymen.
According to what I know, the guy's name was Fibonacci. But I've seen other references to Fabonacci. Since both names are eminently googlable™, which is correct and whence the confusion?
Dear AnnaStrophic:
Fibonacci Series, in mathematics, series of numbers in which each member is the sum of the two preceding numbers. For example, a series beginning 0, 1 … continues as 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, and so forth. The series was discovered by the Italian mathematician Leonardo Fibonacci (circa 1170-c. 1240), also called Leonardo of Pisa. Fibonacci numbers have many interesting properties and are widely used in mathematics. Natural patterns, such as the spiral growth of leaves on some trees, often exhibit the Fibonacci series.
"Fibonacci Series," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
The funicular railroad up MtVesuvius was inspiration for a song "Funiculi, Funicula"
Thank you, Dr Bill. I am familiar with the Fibonacci series, and Helen of Troy described it several posts up. However, rodward called the man FAbonacci, and I was wondering why the mathematician's name is spelled both ways.
Today wow suggested "halcyon" as part of a name for an estate. The etymology is interesting, and taken from the Burnside site in URL inselpeter gave.
Halcyon is now seen only in the idiom "the halcyon days" although it was once used as a verb. It is generally used as referring to days distant and more pleasant, shrouded in the contentment of selective memory. Properly used, it refers to the 14 days of calm weather at sea which, according to Greek legend, interrupt the storms of mid-Winter. It comes from hals (salt, or the sea) and kuo (to brood on). According to Greek legend, the kingfisher makes its nest on the water and hatches its eggs during the 14 days of calm at mid-Winter. Properly used, halcyon means the tranquil spell surrounding the Winter solstice.
The same site gives etymology of word clue, but it is too long to include here.
Rod Ward called the man FabonaciA typo in quick response to a query. I will try to be more careful when presenting "Facts" as opposed to opinions in future. Mea Culpa.
(and while I was berating others for misspoilling my name!
)
Rad
(and while I was berating others for misspoilling my name!)
'S'all right, Red, we love you anyway.
Asparagus (Eng.); Asperge (Fr.); Esparrago (Sp.); Asparago (It.); Spargel (Germ.)
All of these terms come from the Latin asparagus, which was adopted from the Greek word of the same name that means "sparrow grass," as it was often served with little cooked sparrows
One of my uncles used to call "asparagus" "sparrowgrass"
and I thought he was just joking, and never asked him about it. Perhaps he got it from his father, who was quite well read.
There are some errors in the etymology given below. In the first place Leeuwenhoek's name is spelled wrong, he was not a monk, and he did not discover cells, which were first described by Robert Hook.
Cell
Originally meant a monk's living space. It was a monk, Leuenhook, who invented the first microscope. His first specimen was a peice of cork, which was made up of many small rectangular sub-parts. To him, the small rectangles were like the small room monks lived in, known as cells. Thus, he called these microscopic building blocks "cells".
I was surprised to find "beads" came from a word meaning prayer. So "prayer beads" is a tautology.
.
5ME bede, prayer, prayer bead < OE bed < biddan, to pray, ask: see BID16
1 a small, usually round piece of glass, wood, metal, etc., pierced for stringing
Asparagus
I was told that the word came from 'asperges', the phallic-looking thing a priest uses to sprinkle holy water. This name, in turn, from a line in one of the Psalms, "Asperges me, Domine, hyssopo, et mundabor", "Wash me, O Lord, with hyssop and I shall be clean." Of course, one wonders if this is merely a supposition, or a joke, or if the boot is on the wrong leg and it is the sprinkler that takes its name from the vegetable.
Re: asparagus
Dear Bob: I think your version sounds much more probable.
I also remember reading that the head of the procession spread air conditioning fragrances and incense from a censer because the congregation, having no bathing facilities nor incentives to use them, smelled bad.
I also remember reading that the head of the procession spread air conditioning fragrances and incense from a censer because the congregation, having no bathing facilities nor incentives to use them, smelled bad.
Do you think it more likely to be because incense was one of the daily offerings at the Temple in Jerusalem?
AHD says it comes from the Latin --- Asparagus.
Interesting note on the etymology, including a side trip into Sparrowgrass country.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/47/A0464700.html
incense
Well, no, Bill, not exactly. It is believed that the early Christians, in Rome at least, used incense because the Catacombs were actually the municipal cemetery, so they needed some "air conditioning". More to the point, however, was that they inherited the use of incense from the Jews (most of the early Christians were Jews), who used incense in the sacrifices carried out at the Temple in Jerusalem. If you read the regulations for these sacrifices in the book of Leviticus, you will get some idea of why they needed clouds of incense -- the smell must have been horrendous, and not like a barbecue, either. To say nothing of the flies. Speaking of that, there used to be a part of the Catholic liturgical garments called the "maniple", which was a narrow band of cloth, in the same color and material as the chasuble and stole, which was attached to the priest's left wrist. It's original use was to shoo the flies away during the celebration of Mass so they would not contaminate the communion bread and wine.
You mentioned the smells of people in crowds. It used to be the custom, and may be still, in English courtrooms to have a bouquet or nosegay, which the judge carried in and placed on his desk in front of him, also in some municipal processions, some officials carried a nosegay. The original reason was, as you note, the smell of the crowds (or, in the case of the courtroom, the smell of a prisoner brought up from the gaol or dungeon). These nosegays originally contained as much fragrant herbs as flowers, as it was believed that the aroma of the herbs could help overcome the dangerous humours.
why they needed clouds of incense -- the smell must have been horrendous
Amazing how things change with the times! I am sure you are correct BobY! But then in days of deodorants and frequent bathing we were told incense was used as it rises and takes our prayers to heaven with a sweet odor of supplication.
I think you are on the mark and we were fobbed off as the adults are sometimes wont to do with children.
Now as to : custom in courtrooms to have a bouquet or nosegay
The Shorter OED has no entry for nosegay, but Atomica does!
There is also a floral piece called a tussymussy which has to be looked up as two separate words -- it's a small bouquet of casually arranged flowers.
I like that word : tussymussy !
wow
Dear Bob: your mention of the many sacrifices in the Temple reminded me of an article I read that on two occasions when attempts were made to excavate in vicinity of the Temple gas coming out of the excavation ignited severely injuring workmen. Since there is apparently neither oil or natural gas worth mentioning in Israel, I suspect that the many years of soil pollution by sacrifices can have produced methane in this one spot. Sound reasonable?
More to the point, however, was that they inherited the use of incense from the Jews (most of the early Christians were Jews), who used incense in the sacrifices carried out at the Temple in Jerusalem. If you read the regulations for these sacrifices in the book of Leviticus, you will get some idea of why they needed clouds of incense -- the smell must have been horrendous, and not like a barbecue, either.
This explanation may have some merit, but, as I remember it from the Talmud, the incense was a separate offering, brought at a separate altar and at a particular time of day. To my understanding, the animals weren't stacked in dead heaps, but slaughtered and offered. Legally, it was impermissible to derive any pleasure from the fragrance of the incense (which, if you like frankincense, was fragrant, indeed). In any event, they would never have been permitted to rot, as this would have made an unfitting offering. Moreover, the sacrifices were either completely burned (the "holocaust") or eaten, either by the person offering it, or by a priest, depending upon the kind of sacrifice being brought. The blood-and there was a lot of it-was drained off through a pipe that led to the Hinim Valley, below the eastern slope of the Temple Mount. (This is the site of the gates of Hell I mentioned in another post-hell is called "gehinim" in Hebrew. The valley is still called the Hinim Valley, and there is a road sign pointing there on a major thoroughfare below the south-eastern corner of the Old City.) At the end of the pipe, the blood was gathered and sold as fertilizer.
Since there is apparently neither oil or natural gas worth mentioning in Israel, I suspect that the many years of soil pollution by sacrifices can have produced methane in this one spot. Sound reasonable?
Not likely, after over 2000 years. However, the valley between Mt. Zion and the Temple Mount was filled over the centuries-by rubble, when the town was sacked, and by garbage. The latter was intentional: the way the place of the Western Wall (*not* a part of the Temple) was discovered was that people specifically brought their garbage to dump there as a gesture of their dislike of Jews. I would think the methane would more likely have resulted from this long history of refuse disposal (and sewerage which, and I am guessing, would likely have been piped there) than from old sacrifices that were never left to rot in the first place.
***
On another matter entirely, but for the sake of not depleting our dwindling reservoir of posts, does UK "arse" actually come from the Romanish "karsi," after all, and not the plowshare's stubborn friend? (see most recent rhyming slang entry)
The islander wonders: On another matter entirely ... does UK "arse" actually come from the Romanish "karsi," after all, and not the plowshare's stubborn friend?
Considering that the German is Arsch I would doubt it. The US'n pronunciation, without the <r> would be a normal transformation.
BobY asserted: It used to be the custom, and may be still, in English courtrooms to have a bouquet or nosegay, which the judge carried in and placed on his desk in front of him, also in some municipal processions, some officials carried a nosegay. The original reason was, as you note, the smell of the crowds (or, in the case of the courtroom, the smell of a prisoner brought up from the gaol or dungeon). These nosegays originally contained as much fragrant herbs as flowers, as it was believed that the aroma of the herbs could help overcome the dangerous humours.
The alternate explanation I've heard for nosegays was less specific than courtroom vapors ~ since it was custom to empty chamber pots out the window, the gentility carried nosegays to avoid succumbing right there on the street in front of the philistines for whom they were attempting to set an example! Sometimes when I'm frustrated by the ill effects of certain technologies on society, I pause and remember how grateful I am for modern plumbing.
explanations of incense
Your reaction to an explanation of incense which is different from what the good nuns gave out is not what mine would be. Symbolism is not a zero-sum game; they operate on various levels and all may be equally valid at the same time. What happens in very many cases is that a custom arises from a humdrum and everyday usage or practice. As times change and there is no longer a practical reason for keeping it up, there is the usual human reaction to go on doing the same thing, so people tend, consciously or unconsciously, to find a justification to keep on doing the same thing the same way. And if you have a really inventive fellow around, (like St. Thomas Aquinas, among others) you can assign a symbolic meaning. Hence, when there was no longer need for incense as air freshener, its symbolic meaning equating it with prayers (which had been present all along -- it's mentioned in the Psalms in this context, among other places) became the sole meaning and the former use was relegated to history.
It was for more than just the offensiveness of the smell that the nosegays were carried. Right up until mid C19, the majority opinion among the medical profession was that whatever it was that carried disease was actually in the smell itself. This is known as "the miasmic theory of disease." So the herbs, etc in the nosegay were actually being used as a form of disinfectant, rather than as an aid to olfactory aesthetics.
From the 1850s, the belief that disease was carried by minute organisms began to overtake the miasmic theory, and was conclusively proven by Robert Koch in 1896 (or '98 - can't remember!) But there were still some reactionary doctors who held to the miasmic theory well into the C20.
gentility carrying nosegays
Can't go for this explanation. They had enough to do when going down the street. They wore swords, gloves, and hats (which had to be doffed when encountering an acquaintance) and often carried their handkerchief (lace-trimmed) in their hand. Given the fact that ordinary people (i.e., other than the wealthy) didn't bath very often and no one, not even kings, had their silk and velvet clothes cleaned very often or very thoroughly, body odor was taken for granted which we, in these supposedly politer times of ours, would find insupportable. Then there was bad breath -- people had bad teeth much more than we do and I don't believe they brushed, except for maybe a few effete aristocrats. And given the absence or sewerage systems, or only a primitive form of it, the use of the jakes or the chamber pot by everyone, people were accustomed to the omnipresent stench, to some degree or other, of feces, offals and garbage. I imagine they were so used to the all-encompassing cloud of foul smells from various sources that they didn't notice smells which we would find intolerable if we were carried back in time. It would have been an unusually powerful stench which would get them upset enough to take measures to counter them, and which, to us, would be enough to knock us down.
I too am grateful for modern sewerage systems, as well as washing machines and personal deodorants, but I wonder if we have taken this too far. The other day I found myself curling up my nose as I passed a flowerbed which had been treated to a fresh covering of mulch, which was very fragrant, and I had to remind myself not to be such an urban mollycoddle.
miasmas
Right on. This was also connected to the theory of medicine regarding humours. Bocaccio adverts to this in his general preface in the Decameron where he is describing the Black Death [bubonic plague] in Florence.
"What happens in very many cases is that a custom arises from a humdrum and everyday usage or practice. As times change and there is no longer a practical reason for keeping it up, there is the usual human reaction to go on doing the same thing, so people tend, consciously or unconsciously, to find a justification to keep on doing the same thing the same way."
Which reminds me of the story ...
Of the new bride who was excited to host Easter dinner for her new family, and planned to cook a ham according to the tradition of her own family. Using her mother's recipe, the woman cut the ham in two and simultaneously baked them in separate pans. However, when her husband asked her why the ham was in two pieces, the bride said, "I don't know. It's the way my mom always did it." So, the bride called her mother, who said, "I don't know. That's the way my mother always did it." So then the mother called her mother and asked why she baked the ham in two pieces. And grandmother said, "Because I didn't have a single pan big enough."
"Right up until mid C19, the majority opinion among the medical profession was that whatever it was that carried disease was actually in the smell itself. This is known as 'the miasmic theory of disease.'"
Hence, the name, "malaria."
" aloof! An old expression meaning 'Keep your luff', or sail as close to the wind as possible. Sometimes, in old books of voyages, written as 'ALUFFE'. The expression was most often used when a ship was sailing along a lee shore, the order to 'keep aloof' meaning to keep the ship's head nearer to the wind to prevent her being driven closer to the shore. "
Any etymology experts among us able to tell how this nautical term changed to mean
"distant in sympathy, interest, etc.; reserved and cool !her manner was aloof"
adv.
1. [naut] sail nearer the wind
2. [naut] away to the windward
3. hence generally, of position: away at some distance
4. of action: from a distance, not at close quarters
5. fig. without community of action or feeling
6. as compl. or pred.: at a distance; distant; hence, detached, unsympathetic
hence attrib. as adj. distant (obs. rare), also, detached, unsympathetic
QED
The small room or closet adjoining the kitchen that is ordinarily called the pantry, was called by my father "the buttry". I just found origin of this word in Melanie and Mike:
Butt "barrel" comes from a different source than all of the above: Latin buttis "cask". Bottle is related. A storeroom of casks of wine was called a buterie, and that is where the U.K. English term buttery "food shop in a college" comes from. So if you get thee to a buttery, it does not have to be a fattening experience.
Latin buttis "cask". Bottle is related. A storeroom of casks of wine was called a buterie, and that is where the U.K. English term buttery "food shop in a college" comes from
Cool, Bill! Yup, the French word for bottle is
bouteille: all this is now clearly related. Thanks.
And, re: aloof--I reckon aluffe meant that the ship is
standing off (from the shore), and so aloof for people means
they're stand-offish.
Cool, Bill! Yup, the French word for bottle is
bouteille: all this is now clearly related. Thanks.
All this talk of bottles reminds me of the fiasco that brought me here in the first place - what goes around comes around, plus ça change, etc.
All this talk of bottles reminds me of the fiasco that brought me here in the first place - what goes around comes around, plus ça change, etc. You mean you played Spin the Bottle?!?
You mean you played Spin the Bottle?!?Search for fiasco and all will be revealed (which may well happen in Spin The Bottle as well)
Wasn't Amontillado el Fiasco a character in Asterix in Spain?
Wasn't Amontillado el Fiasco a character in Asterix in Spain?
I can't remember, but I do know that I have lnog felt that the translators of the Asterix series are literary heroes grossly underappreciated. After struggling through Astérix et Cleopatre in High School, the genius of the translators in retaining the sense, and sense of humour, in a series dependent on punning, shone through. I don't even know their names, but they were gifted, that's for sure.
Be Like the Twenty-Second Elephant with Heated Value in Space - Bark!
Search for fiascoThat's right! Oh, sweet Max, have we really known each other only since Aug. 12th? Time sure flies when you're having such delightful fun!
but I do know that I have lnog felt that the translators of the Asterix series are literary heroes grossly underappreciated.
They were/are Anthea Bell and Derek Hockridge. Guess which book from the series I can't lay my hands on? And yes, they were very clever, especially since in several instances they virtually had to recast the story to make the English fit the French-inspired cartoons.
Latin buttis "cask". Bottle is related. A storeroom of casks of wine was called a buterie, and that is where the U.K. English term buttery "food shop in a college" comes fromand butter is made in a churn or cask. But wait for it.. the entymology is the other way round!!. Ignore the "in reply to"
In reply to:
: butter. Middle English, from Old English butere, from Latin butyrum, from Greek boutyron, from bous cow + tyros cheese; akin to Avestan tuiri- curds -- more at COW
from Miriam-Webster via yourdic (I knew him Horatio)
Rod
There was one, I don't remember the title, in which the pirates were clinging to the shattered remains of their ship in a parody of Gericault's Raft of the Medusa. The old pirate, who is usually saying something pithy in Latin, remarks, "We've been framed, by Jericho!" This doesn't quite work for US'ns for whom framed in this context would mean wrongly accused/indicted for some crime. Does framed mean something else for Brits?
Also, I had had the idea that the puns in Asterix were all preprogrammed in; I have copies of Asterix the Gladiator and Asterix Gladiador and some of the puns in English seem to have been translated literally into Spanish, in which language they are not puns. Since the Spanish version, I am certain, was translated from the French I could only assume that the puns had been lying in wait in the original ready to spring out in whatever language they got translated into.
Does anyone know what the "We've been framed..." line was in the French?
We've been framed, by Jericho!
It means the same in British, so without seeing the picture I'm not sure what the reference is. I will have a look through my (partial) collection, some in French (and German) tonight.
I do know that many (if not most) of the puns were language specific and different in each country (don't know how much the UK/US differ). Many of the names change: Dogmatix is Ideefix in French, Christmas Bonus the centurion is something completely different.
They used to publish the French books in UK with a pamphlet inside explaining the puns to an English audience, and if you could explain one they had missed you got a free Asterix book of your choice.
Which leads me to a phrase which my wife wishes I wouldn't use so often (on a crossed thread again). When I see someone doing things in a convoluted way I tend to mutter ".. fresh in from Paris everyday" refering to Unhygenix the Fishmonger's custom of supplying his seaside fish shop from Paris.
Rod
"We've been framed..." spoken by the pirate captain in Asterix
Sorry, couldn't find it in my (smallish) collection. (Damn kids. Buy 'em a book and they think it's theirs!) Only thought I had was that maybe the pirate had a hatch opening round his head, so "framing" him, but I presume you would have seen that.
However the search sent me rooting through the pun notes for a French copy of "Asterix and the Gladiators" (by the way a nephew was an extra - a German tribesman - in Gladiators. The battle scene was filmed in the woods next to my in-law's house) In this it mentions that one of the songs is a parody of a kid's song "Il etait un petit navire". It also mentions that "there is a noted rude version". I have been unable to track this down. Any help please?
And while we're on the subject. Such rude songs are generally known as "Rugby Songs" in UK. Is there such a phrase in US and elsewhere, or are they just known as "dirty songs"?
Rod
Whenever I see a free giveaway when you purchase something (ginzu knives come to mind), I mutter to myself "... and a free fish with every antique ..." From "Mansions of the Gods", of course. Or it could be a free antique with every fish purchased.
and a free fish with every antique ..." Or it could be a free antique with every fish purchased.of course with Unhygienix the fish WAS the antique
Is there a french pun hidden in the "free fish with every antique"(or vice versa) or is it just commenting on the practice of freebies?
Rod
Rod asks: Is there a french pun hidden in the "free fish...
I just thought the poison/poisson connexion was funny enough, but I don't know enough French (or have enough Aterices in French) to know if they exploited it.
Totally off the subject almost : I cannot abide the perfume Poison. It's toooo heavy a scent. Gives me a headache.
The name is also off-putting as I cannot help but read it as the French name for fish (poisson sp?) which brings to mind a very fishy smell.