Is this the "equivalent" of pronouncing the word wash as "wore-sh"?

Aaaahhhh--don't get me started! These are the same people who go out to the garden and pick flahrs.

Is this the "equivalent" of pronouncing the word wash as "wore-sh"?

Help me out, s'il you bitte, musick. Do you mean that for you the vowel sounds in "wash" and "horse" are the same? That would make "horse" into "hoss", here at any rate. The reason horse and sauce rhyme here is because, we don't pronounce "r" much. This was a conscious decision on our part, done to provide amusement for the overly rhotic, especially those who know what paua are.

"phbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt" is a bilabial fricative.

I'll go back to my cave now.

paua = "pa-yew-ah"?(that's how I read it) I've never heard this.

I was originally going to say "...retrograde...", but I figured "equivalent" would highlight the last time someone in this thread ignored my "". (I guess not) Do you mean that for you the vowel sounds in "wash" and "horse" are the same? No.

Enough help, I hope. Now help me..."s'il you bitte? paua?"

Now help me..."s'il you bitte? paua?"

"s'il you bitte" is the simply the extent of my grasp of the the three languages used, "s'il vous plait", "if you please", "bitte". Paua, pronounced pa-wah is the Maori name for the shellfish USns call abalone. My reference to it was a jocular aside to one who cruelly mocked my non-rhoticism.

Thanks, Daryl

Those are great. I did see a similar road and toad one, but I thought it was too obscure. This one is plain as day, and I like it :). Obscuraty isn't necessarily something that keeps me from posting things, but on this one, I was trying to lure them in.

Glad to have aboard! I hope you have fun here, and to hear lots from you!

David

See how much you understand David:

I was in the Karsi, sitting on me Kyber, using the grey matter, when I thought, wouldn't it be nice if me Dutch made some Rosy. She got some fresh Adam's there. So I went down the Apples and told her. We could go up to the Rubba. Me in me best Whistle and Titfer and me new Daisy's, and her in her best bib and tucker with her new Tile. It's a long Frog but we'd do it O.K. on Shank's Pony. That's if our Plates last out. Probably see a couple of me Chinas there with the Arrows and a Pig or two. One's a Brummie, one's a Scouse. He might have his Geordie mate with him too. Could see another China of the way, he's a Septic but not a bad bloke. Likes to knock you a bit though. If I see the Runner, I'll probably put a Pony on a Nag, but if there is a Peeler about, he'll probably have it on his toes. If he gets Nicked he'll be Banged up for a full moon. I'll ask for a Butcher's at the form if he's on his Jack. If I win I'll get a Lardy and some snout for her. She's a bit Mutton at the moment but you should see the Minces in her Boat and her Barnet is a joy to behold. Won't even mention her North and South. Lovely as ever.

Confused Dave? 'Ave a butcher's at http://www.bio.nrc.ca/cockney/. And get that expression off your Chevy Chase :-)

AnnaS notes: "phbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt" is a bilabial fricative.

I've allus spelled it BWR. It's the first phoneme in BWRENTARRRR, the Ludicrans word for big motorcycle.

Thanks. That's b'youth'full.

I understand the need to use these rhyming slangs during the war, when there was a need to camouflage what you were saying...but why does this continue today.

Why would anyone prefer saying "I Adam and Eve you" instead of "I believe you"?

Look at the paragraph given by belli above. It can be cut in half if you use the real words or have these expressions become the real words?

Does a child who is raised speaking only the cockney tongue know that a barrow is called a barrow in the English speaking world. If you show him a picture of a barrow, does he know it as as a bow and arrow only?

In the dictionary you send us to Belli, there are words that are represented by pretty recent things like Sigourney Weaver and Britney Spears. Would EVERBODY know what a speaker was talking about if they used those two terms?

> Would EVERBODY know what a speaker was talking about if they used those two terms?

I don't think so; that's half the fun of it though - to work things out from their context. It's playful; you can coin your own, and you're never wrong! I don't think there's much of a worry that kids would only learn the rhyming slang terms, because the vocab. is very general, just common, everyday words which they'd pick up regardless which way.

To me (UK) Horse rhymes with Sauce = sorse, not Hoss with Soss. No doubt about it.

Ro* Ward

bilabial = using BOTH sets of lips???

Ro* Ward

Most slangs serve several purposes, including excluding strangers including members of the group. I presume that the current teenage fashion for rhyming slang is just a fashion, and will move back to rap or on to whatever comes next, with the most memorable and useful phrases sticking a bit longer.
The phrase "I Adam and Eve you" is not commonly used, but the construction "Would you Adam'n'eve it?" is fairly common. Remember that many (most?) constructions lost the rhyming second half, so China = China Plate = mate (friend)and so the synonym is not particularly long or awkward.
I think it was the Two Ronnies (UK TV) which had a sketch entirely in Rhyming slang but the two participants each had a completely different rhyming pair and meaning which had to be unravelled with humourous results.

Ro* Ward

Ben, Ro! You're right, thanks.
IP

'Ave a butcher's at http://www.bio.nrc.ca/cockney/. And get that expression off your Chevy Chase :-)

Hi BY, went to the link thinking I'd find the "translation" for the bits I couldn't understand in the Cockney paragraph.
No joy!
Is there a translation that would help out?
OK, so I'm lazy today.
wow

I have translated the words I knew [from memory] [updated from looking at my 5 shilling (!) Guide to Cockney] and thought you might not! I don't know all the rhyming pairs and some may not have any. In general but not common English usage, as far as I am aware, Karsi, Adam's Ale, Shank's Pony, Arrows, Geordie, Brummie, Scouser, Pony, nicked, Butcher's,

I was in the Karsi [toilet], sitting on me Kyber [-pass=arse], using the grey matter, when I thought, wouldn't it be nice if me Dutch [(prob.)-ess of Fife =wife] made some Rosy [-lee=tea]. She got some fresh Adam's [-Ants=pants or Adam's Ale=water] there. So I went down the Apples [and pears=stairs] and told her. We could go up to the Rubba [-DubDub=Pub]. Me in me best Whistle [and Flute=suit] and Titfer [-tat=hat] and me new Daisy's [-roots=boots], and her in her best bib and tucker with her new Tile[should know can't remember]. It's a long Frog[and taod=road] but we'd do it O.K. on Shank's Pony[own legs]. That's if our Plates [of meat=feet] last out. Probably see a couple of me Chinas[Plates=mates] there with the Arrows[=darts] and a Pig[-'s ear=Beer] or two. One's a Brummie [from Birmingham], one's a Scouse [Liverpool]. He might have his Geordie [Newcastle] mate with him too.[Editor's note: they would need a 4-way translator!!] Could see another China of the way, he's a Septic [-tank=yank] [ed; Sorry -5] but not a bad bloke. Likes to knock you a bit though. If I see the Runner [for a bookie], I'll probably put a Pony [25 pounds] on a Nag [horse], but if there is a Peeler [Robert Peel home secretary when policeman started] about, he'll probably have it on his toes. If he gets Nicked [arrested] he'll be Banged up for a full moon. I'll ask for a Butcher's [-hook=look] at the form if he's on his Jack [Todd=alone I'll find out why]. If I win I'll get a Lardy {-dah=cigar] and some snout[tobacco] for her. She's a bit Mutton[prob. Mutt'n'Jeff=Deaf which I discarded earlier but can't find anything else] at the moment but you should see the Minces[-Pies=eyes] in her Boat[-race=face. Ok so Oxford was robbed] and her Barnet[-Fair=Hair] is a joy to behold. Won't even mention her North and South [actually Norf'n'Sarf=mouth. Ooright guvn'r "marf"]. Lovely as ever.
[And no I didn't try Enigma!]

Rod Ward

The UK Times this Saturday (31st March 2001) headlined an article on a public garden "You can Adam and Eve it". They presumably think that most readers would understand the reference. (and I agree).

Rod

,

I've just picked up on this thread, which is a particular interest of mine.
Congratulation, Rod, for a masterly transcription of by's wonderful rhyming narrative.
I have one disagreement with you, which is ove "... on his Jack ..." The rhyming couplet is Jack Jones = alone, which is of fairly modern provenance (ref to Jack Jones, the Trades Union Leader.) b-y could have used, " ..on his Todd ..." for the same meaning; I am not absolutely certain of the provenance of this one, which is far older. I think that the couplet is Todd Malone = alone, and he was probably a sportsman (prize-fighter?) in the mid C19. I'm at work, so can't look up my prize ring references, but it certainly rings a bell (sorry!!)

BelM inmplied that it was a war-time camoflage of language, but it is very much older than that, probably dating back to the C18, certainly strongly in use in the C19. It's purpose was to allow the costers (= street traders, or "barrow-boys") to converse without either the "punters" (their customers) or the "rozzers" (= peelers, bobbies, blue-boys = police) to understand what they were talkong about. Essential when you were a) taking advantage of your customers, b) dealing in stolen goods = probably both at the same time!
As you will have noticed from Rod's transcription, not all of the words are rhyming slang - there is a whole lot of thieves cant and Romany words in use as well (e.g. karsi, which is a Romany word for the area beyond the caravan where you go to relieve yourself.) When spoken fast and in a strong East End accent, it is impossible for an outsider to break the code - not least because the rhyming slang changes frequently.

the rhyming slang changes frequently

... which is the creative spur that continues, I suspect, to give this language form such amazing life, eh Rhuby?

Absolutely so, mav.
I have noticed, BTW, that when a person coins a new couplet, they will very often quote it in full, and it is only when a few people have adopted it (or if there are strangers in the camp) that it gets shortened to just the first word. Unless, of course, they are using it to test the quick-wittedness of there Chinas, in which case it can become a competition.

transferred from the neanderthal threadOn another matter entirely, for the sake of conserving the dwindling reservoir of posts, does UK "arse" actually come from the Romanish "karsi," after all, and not the plowshare's stubborn friend? ("karsi," according to the most recent rhyming slang post, is Romanish for "latrine," was picked up by street kids in 18C or 19C as part of their slang and would seem to make more sense as the source of "arse." But, then, all sense is seeming

No, "arse" comes into the English language very early on - it is of Teutonic provenance and could have come in via the Norsemen or the Saxons. Words of Romany origin are more likely to be allied to the languages of India.

by street kids in 18C or 19C - "barrow-boys" weren't the same as street kids, and the term could be applied as well to a man of 80 as to one of 18. I'm not sure when that term came into use, incidentally - I think it is probably a C20 invention. In the previous century, street traders were know as costermongers (literally, sellers of apples - although it covered all forms of produce)

Hilary, thanks for the correction on the "Jack" = "Jack Jones" = "Alone". I had expected the much more commonly used expression (to me anyway) "on his Todd" and tried to mix the two.

Thanks also for the information on "karsi". I had (incorrectly) assumed that it arrived in English with the 8th Army from Egypt, as I think shufti and bint did.

Can anyone think of any words from backslang to enter the common language apart from "yob"? And is backslang itself still in use anywhere? I know my sister and her school friends used a backslang (I think they called it "Pig Latin") but they discovered to their cost that one of the mothers was still fluent from her childhood.

Rod

In reply to:

---

Can anyone think of any words from backslang to enter the common language apart from "yob"? And is backslang itself still in use anywhere? I know my sister and her school friends used a backslang (I think they called it "Pig Latin")

---

Pig Latin is alive and well, but I am unaware of any Igpay Atinlay formations which have entered general use except for "ixnay," usually used to discontinue a conversation upon the approach of an authority. I've never heard "yob" in use, but I don't have a lot of exposure to the population groups you would expect to be using the term.

My grandfather taught me Pig Latin. He was born in 1908. I wonder how far back it goes?

You also asked about "Tile", Rod:
"Oh, where did you get that hat
Where did you get that tile,
Isn't it a nobby one
and just the proper style!"

Thanks, Hilary. I know the song but had forgotten it. I had remembered its use in "Any Old Iron" where it's ambiguous. But is Tile=Hat from association with roof tiles or from a rhyme, or what?
Rod

"barrow-boys" weren't the same as street kids, and the term could be applied as well to a man of 80 as to one of 18. I'm not sure when that term came into use

Weren't they so called because they trundled their wares in
(wheel)barrows?

The subject of a famous song, Molly Malone, "who wheeled her wheelbarrow through streets long and narrow," has been honored by having a statue portraying the fictional lady built in Dublin, Ireland.
The Dubliners have nicknamed the statue "The tart with a cart."

I understand there are other statues in Dublin with sobriquets spawned by the wicked Irish sense of humor.

Anyone?
wow

Statues in Dublin (and very fine they are too)

Tart with the Cart ..... Molly Malone of the song
Hags with the Bags ..... Two ladies shopping
Floozie in the Jacuzzi... A woman (Anna Livia - Of James Joyce) in a tub with fountain
Fag on the Crag ..... Oscar Wilde
Dick with the Stick ..... James Joyce

I googled to get Anna Livia's name and was reminded that Molly is also known as "The dish with the fish". And also found out that a lift (sorry - elavator) they have installed on a chimney stack is now known as "the flue with the view".
http://www.rootsweb.com/~fianna/travel/dubltour.html has pictures of some of the statues.

Rod

and after Nelson's pillar was first blown up-- some time back in the late '60's, (68? 69?) the remaining ruble was called nelson's tomb-- eventually it was total removed.

age 8 i learned Molly Malone as a "recitation piece" i still know the three verses.

Ok everybody, you can join Helen by clicking on http://homepage.tinet.ie/~mdgprimary/molly.htm and singing along with her. As an inducement (well to some of you perhaps), this site has a picture of the statue showing her cleavage (Molly's not Helen's I hasten to add, oh HELP I'm digging a deeper hole ) to full advantage.
Rod

Alas-- Helen does not have any cleavage! -- there would be no mistaking me for Molly!
Helen comes from a family like James Joyce-- who in one of his autobiographical short stories spoke of a mother who " was considered a large breasted woman, in a country known for large breasted women"
the family joke when speaking about breast is "Oh, she bigger on top then you are Helen-- but then every one is! (this was refering to a not quite 13 year old neice)-- It used to bother me, but not any more!

Put she does look a bit like a tart-- with her the neckline cut so low... and i bet she has her pettycoats tucked up into her apron, and is showing off a well turn ankle--

yeah, right, like there is an irish woman alive with a "well turned ankle"-- do they still sell "peggy's legs" candy sticks down at the sea shore Rod? well named they are!

Rodward said: and her in her best bib and tucker with her new Tile[should know can't remember]

"Tile" might be a hat as well, though I don't know what the second part of the rhyming pair would be, if there is one.
There is a song that goes:

"Where did you get that hat, where did you get that tile?
Ain't it a nobby one and just the latest style?
I would like to have one, just the same as that.
Wherever I go they shout 'Hallo, where did you get that hat?'"

This is how I remember the song, which would then be all about a hat=tile. However, I have also heard the first line as "Where did you get that hat, that collar and that tile?". Which brings my leetle contribution loudly crashing to the ground!

Marianna

Marianna -- your recollections of the song are almost spot on. It was written by James Rolmaz in 1888 and the words (in my printed copy) are:

1st verse (of five)
Now how I came to get this hat, 'tis very strange and funny,
Grandfather died and left to me his property and money;
And when the will it was read out, they told me straight and flat,
If I would have his money I must always wear his hat!

Chorus
"Where did you get that hat? Where did you get that tile?
Isn't it a nobby one, and just the proper style?
I should like to have one just the same as that!"
Where'er I go they shout, "Hello! Where did you get that hat?"

Wheear 'as ta bin sin ah saw thee,
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at?!
Wheear 'as ta bin sin ah saw thee?
Wheear 'as ta bin sin ah saw thee?
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at?!
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at?!
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at?!
Tha's been a cooartin' Mary Jane
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at
Tha's been a cooartin' Mary Jane
Tha's been a cooartin' Mary Jane
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at
Tha's bahn t'catch thi deeath o'cowd
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at
Tha's bahn t'catch thi deeath o'cowd
Tha's bahn t'catch thi deeath o'cowd
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at


Then we shall ha' to bury thee
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at
Then we shall ha' to bury thee
Then we shall ha' to bury thee
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at
On Ilkla Moor baht 'at


etc.....

Speaking of statues with rhyming names reminded me of a famous artwork at Notre Dame University in Indiana, USA, which is neither a statue nor has a rhyming name.
In view of the football stadium, at a religious University where football is a religion, is the (in)famous Touchdown Jesus. For those unfamiliar with merican football, the figure in the piece is postured as if he were an official signaling a score.

Here he is:

http://www.12thfan.com/images/touchdown_jesus.jpg

I have no idea if these are original but I thought them up this weekend for other famous (= I know of them) statues.
The Dame with the Flame (aka The Vamp with the Lamp)
The Dish like the Fish
The Tar on the Spar
The Bloke with the Smoke
Rod