cousins and cousins - Wordsmith.org

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Old subject maybe to die-hards, but cousins are clumsily handled in our languages. In English , when I say cousin (aunt or uncle's child) nothing indicates whether I mean male or female. Always annoys me that it needs further explanation. In Dutch we make the distinction between the two by using two different words: Neef and nicht. Our weak point is that we use the same two words for sons and daughters of our brothers and sisters (sloppy)), where as in Englsh you give: niece ans nephew, a clear distinction.

The Italians have it also only half right; cugino and cugina for children of aunts and uncles and nipote for brother and sister's children without indication of sexes.

The French have it all under control; cousin and cousine for the children of aunts and uncles and niece and neveu for the children of sisters and brothers.

My German is not too good, don't know but Neffe and Nichte but not if there is any special indic. for brother and sister's son.

Can anyone explain why we do not all treat the cousin- thing like the French? And why it is this way? Do these differences come from different ways families were structured in ancient times?

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Old subject maybe to die-hards, but cousins are clumsily handled in our languages. In English , when I say cousin (aunt or uncle's child) nothing indicates whether I mean male or female. Always annoys me that I have to give further explanation. In Dutch we make the distinction between the two by using two different words: Neef and nicht. Our weak point is that we use the same two words for sons and daughters of our brothers and sisters (so sloppy)), where as in Englsh you give: niece ans nephew, a clear distinction.

The Italians have it also only half right; cugino and cugina for children of aunts and uncles and nipote for brother and sister's children without indication of sexes.

The French have it all under control; cousin and cousine for the children of aunts and uncles and niece and neveu for the children of sisters and brothers.

My German is not too good, don't know but Neffe and Nichte but not if there is any special indic. for brother and sister's son.

Can anyone explain why we do not all treat the cousin- thing like the French? And why it is this way? Do these differences come from different ways families were structured in ancient times?

Don't forget that "nipote" is also "grandchild" in Italian. VERY confusing, imo.

However, it is interesting that the Indic languages have a huge range of very specific terms for familial relations. Different words for in-laws based not only on kinship but age, and that sort of pattern is carried through to brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. Those wonderfully specific terms are also prominent on the casualty list of words that disappear in Hinglish. Young, "educated" (i.e. English-speaking)Indians and NRIs will often use the much vaguer English words rather than specific Hindi ones. The English may be less precise, but it's simpler and shorter. I know that Tamizh also has differentiation in relationship nouns, and would not be surprised to see that many of them have likewsie been supplanted by English.

And there are some languages that have one word for children of mother's sisters and father's brothers and another for children of mother's brothers and father's sisters. Generally called parallel cousins and cross cousins in anthropological writings.

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And there are some languages that have one word for children of mother's sisters and father's brothers and another for children of mother's brothers and father's sisters. Generally called parallel cousins and cross cousins in anthropological writings.

One of my hindi text book has the following listed:
Aunt: (father's sister, father's older brother's wife, father's younger brother's wife, mother's brother's wife, mother's sister)

Brother-in-law: (husband's older brother, husband's sister's husband, husband's younger brother, wife's brother, wife's sister's husband)

granddaughter: (daughter's daughter, son's daughter)
grandfather: (mother's father, father's father)
grandmother: (mother's mother, mother's father)
grandson: (daughter's son, son's son)
nephew: (brother's son, sister's son)
niece: (sister's daughter, brother's daughter)
sister-in-law:(brother's wife, husband's sister, wife's sister)
uncle:(father's older brother, father's sister's husband, father's younger brother, mother's brother, mother's brother's husband)

Of them all, the most confusing for me is maamaa - mother's brother.

how about second cousins, once removed? are there specific words in other languages for such relations?

(my family is cross generational, --My paternal grandmother was born contemperary with her neices. (children of her 20 years older sister) the aunt (my great grandmother) and neice remained close, into adulthood--so many of my 'cousins' (second cousins) are about the same age as my parents! (actually they are some years older,(7 to 10) but close enough that they too, were young post war parents at the same time my parents were , and their shared experiences erased the age differences)

Their kids are my kids third cousins. (or my second cousins, once removed!)

(we have fun family reunions.. since we are now into 4th cousins, once removed. (or barely related!) )

I don't know whether it's just a filmi convention, or whether it was ever used much in real life, but "sister-brother" is often heard in Hindi cinema for male matrilineal cousin. To be fair, the most common word for cousin that I hear in Hindi is "cousin". The most common Hindi words used for cousin seem to be those that mean "brother" and "sister".

After realising that I didn't really know the Hindi words for cousin, I looked them up. It turns out that there are different words for the children of one's paternal and maternal aunts and uncles. The online Hindi dictionary I use most also lists the two words I hear most often "brother" and "sister". In my limited experience, Hindi and Punjabi speakers seldom call their cousins "cousins". They are simply brothers and sisters.

THank you for maamaa. How to pronounce

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THank you for maamaa. How to pronounce

Like the English "mama", but with the vowels held a little longer.

a huge range of very specific terms for familial relations

Yes. A colleague from Nagpur used maamaa the other day in conversation, and realizing that there were some non-Indians in the group he was addressing quickly glossed it by saying "my uncle".

Latin distinguishes between mother's brother avunculus and father's brother patruus. Some other terms in Latin avunculus magnus 'grandmother's brother', avunculus major 'great-grandmother's brother', avunculus maximus 'great-great-grandmother's brother'. Works for aunts, too: matertera 'mother's sister' and amita 'father's sister'.

Like what I read here about the Hindu family indications, the africans have the same almost incomprehensible mix up of cousins beeing called brothers and brother's son's beeing called also son by the uncles and aunts, but I've really given up on figuring that out. I gave up hope on that completely and think it's allright as long as they themselves can follow it.
But for us, could you not do a little improving? Making a female cousin : cousina ( and for Dutch it'll be harder work to put it right) . But this is about English so first things first.
It sounds good enough cousina,no? Or would it be too easily confused with casino?

Making a female cousin : cousina ...

We have a term for female cousin. It is female cousin.

Tja Zmjd,

I already suspected my request was too demanding.
The term for male cousin is cousin? Or male cousin?
(only one tiny a?)No? Then I'll go on using he-cousin and she-cousin.
With or without hyphen?

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Tja Zmjd, I already suspected my request was too demanding.
The term for male cousin is cousin? Or male cousin?
(only one tiny a?)No? Then I'll go on using he-cousin and she-cousin.
With or without hyphen?

Why do you need a single word in English? Both your coinages sound VERY alien to this native English speaker's ears, and would likely be as jarring to others, also. If the aim is natural-sounding English, "he/she cousin", whether with or without a hyphen, would be a noticeable step in the opposite direction.

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Then I'll go on using he-cousin and she-cousin.
With or without hyphen?

I should also add that some English speakers would find being called "he-cousin" or "she-cousin" mildly offensive, or irritating. Certainly here in NZ, the gender prefix conjures up associations with livestock.

If there were some important difference between male cousins and female cousins or between children of father's siblings and children of mother's siblings or between cross-cousins and parallel-cousins then we would have separate terms for them. Cultures in which there are important differences have separate terms. If a language uses the same word for one's own children and those of one's siblings' children it's probably because there is no important difference in that culture.

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Then I'll go on using he-cousin and she-cousin.
With or without hyphen?

I should also add that some English speakers would find being called "he-cousin" or "she-cousin" mildly offensive, or irritating. Certainly here in NZ, the gender prefix conjures up associations with livestock.

You're right Sjmaxq (sorry) and thank you for using the word 'mildly'. It could be offensive , but I would never use this in official language. I just thought English is such an efficient language that I wondered why this could not be a one word clearness.

Faldage , I agree that must be it, The culture is accordingly:
When one mother dies, her sister takes all of her ten children into her family group (I know from African friends it works that way).

"If there were some important difference between male cousins and female cousins or between children of father's siblings and children of mother's siblings or between cross-cousins and parallel-cousins then we would have separate terms for them. Cultures in which there are important differences have separate terms. If a language uses the same word for one's own children and those of one's siblings' children it's probably because there is no important difference in that culture."

I would find much more use for a non-gendered word for nieces and nephews as in... I'm buying gifts for my nieces and nephews. knee-shoes... nef-lets...???

Cousin/cousine is inflection rather than separate words. I see a slippery slope. Feminist cousines will feel slighted - I'm not a full cousin only a cousinette. Do we care about American/Americane? We already have a hard time with blond/blonde.
Will we soon be worrying if we can put le papier into la corbeille without properly introducing them first? (^_^)

"I see a slippery slope." Then don't step on it. The balance of your comment already is swaying a little.
Feminist cousines would not be offended when called cousine.Yes, cousinette would be a little over the top. They would really be offended however if you would call them guy, boy or fellow.But I won't take this case to the judge, don't you worry.

(as long as you introduce your waste papers politely)