Does anyone know what Salutamus ti Mortatuum means?

-Scott

I can't give the quotation accurately either, but the original meant something like "We who are about to die, salute you!"

A salute given to the Caesar by Gladiators before The Games began.
wow

AVECÆSARMORITVRITESALVTANT Apparently, something like, "Hail, Caesar, men doomed to die salute thee."

Morituri = from morior, mori (die, expire, wither away, pass away, fail, decay).

Morituri is the future accusitive plural so in the context of "morituri te salutant" could be translated as "Those about to die", but knowing the Roman penchant for mordant (sic) humour, it could equally well be translated as "The living dead".

Someone whose knowledge of Latin is less rusty than mine may beg to differ authoritatively!

"Those about to die"

That's how I had always thought it was rendered. Since my own Latin stops at "ave", I was surprised when a dictionary listing of famous non-English phrases rendered it "men doomed to die."

But didn't some live to fight another day?
wow
Oh, without running away that is!

In those games in the Colosseum, there was no place to run to.And those who won, had to fight and probably die in the next Games.

The champ gladiator won 21 consecutive games. (ask me a anything about Rome and I can answer it. I'm an expert on Rome)

-Scott

Well actually, he won two and a half thousand. (21 )

-Scott

Since my own Latin stops at "ave", I was surprised when a dictionary listing of famous non-English phrases rendered it "men doomed to die."

No, it has to be "those" rather than "men". Female gladiators, after all, were not uncommon. Apart from that the translation of MORITVRITESALVTANT you have found is probably as valid as any other, since there was no exact Latin equivalent of the word "doomed".

However, it doesn't mean "condemned" as in "the condemned criminal". There was a noun, not based on mori, judicio or damno, which was used for this. But (sob) I can't remember what it was.

However, someone (Seneca, I think), said "Gladiator in arena consilium capit." Roughly translated, it means "Think before it's too late." Literally, it means "The gladiator is making plans in the arena." Shortly, I presume, after he or she had already done the "Morituri te salutant" thing.

As I said, a mordant lot, the Romans.

a mordant lot, the Romans

But great party givers! (Aside from the death-by-being-torn- apart-by-lions thing.)
wow

One thing about Roman parties I cannot understand, the preference for eating lying down. I could never enjoy breakfast in bed. I feel more secure swallowing when seated upright. No "hindlick maneuvers" for me!

Roman parties I cannot understand, the preference for eating lying down
Not really prone, whh, rather more like lounging. Just one end of the couch was raised, you leaned against it with the back sort of tucked under your arm and your body stretched out on the flat part. A sort of Madame Recarmier (sp?) kind of thing. How about chaisse longue as a reference? That's more what I mean. No acid reflux . Couches are depicted in movies and also appear in frescoes on walls at Pompei, Italy.
wow

About dining horizontally, or course "prone" was a lapsus cerebri cortici (dog Latin) meaning I goofed. Even supine would not be right. Anyhow, I'm chuckling that nobody noticed the intervention suggested. Teehee.

wwh> About dining horizontally...

During what we call here the Second Temple Period, when Judea was occupied by Rome, the 'normal' way of dining was, in fact, almost horizontally... propped up on cushions, with the food in front most probably on low tables. In fact, all those wonderful European painters who pictured the "Last Supper" as a long table with everyone on one side and Jesus in the middle were, in a word, WRONG!

In fact, the type of 'dining' was called a triclineum - a three-sided table, in a U-shape, low to the floor, so that the diners were, as mentioned above, propped up on cushions, around both the outside and sometimes the inside, as well, of the table(s).

A good place to see how this was arranged is at Zippori (Sepphoris) in the Lower Galilee (just 6 kms north of Nazareth). If you have seen any information on any of the archaeological excavations there, you will have seen a mosaic floor which contains what we fondly call "the Mona Lisa of the Galilee" - a beautiful woman with a stark expression looking straight out (at the camera, so to speak). It's a beautiful example of the type of mosaic work that was prevalant in wealthy Hellenistic homes of the period. Anyway, the floor that contains this small piece is in what would have been the 'main' room of the home. The entire mosaic design is a tribute to Dionysus and only one portion contains the face of the woman but it also has a plain white mosaic section that forms a U-shape around the outside of the design at one end of the room. On this white section is where the tables would have been placed. The mosaic floor, then, was the forerunner of our carpets!

BTW - since the designation for Joseph, the father of Yeshua (Jesus), as "capenter" in translation is not exactly correct - he was more likely a 'tekton' which would have been either a stone mason or general handyman or both - I offer that he worked, not in Nazareth which was a poor village of only 200-300 people, but in that grand wealthy gleaming white city on the hill just outside of Nazareth called Zippori (Hebrew for "bird in a nest" as it sits comfortably on the hill overlooking the vast valleys all around it).

The place to EXPERIENCE this type of dining is a terrific and fun restaurant called The Cardo Cullinaria which is located in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. Upon entering, you are greeted by trumpets announcing your entrance, asked to don typical Roman garb (which is provided), to sit at a triclineum table and enjoy 2,000-year-old food - actually not bad considering...

Hope y'all don't mind - just practicing!

Shoshannah

*One footnote - this 'villa' in Zippori was undoubtedly NOT a Jewish home, as it is doubtful that a Jewish home would have included images of people or animals in the design since it is against Jewish law (the Torah) to do so. As well, no Jewish home would have included a tribute to Dionysus in the design, obviously!

OK, Bill, I'll bite: Methinks thou dost protest too much! I'll bet you're planning a Roman banquet right now, in the hope of choking on a chicken nugget just so some sweet young thing in a toga can hindlick you right out of distress. Caligula, move over.

Woohooo - paaarrr-teee!

Shoshannah: Thanks for the informed guided tour. I keep trying to learn, but it is like trying to fill a pail with a small hole in the bottom. Bill

Dear Sparteye:
Actually not even in my wildest dreams would I seek such ministrations. No missionary would have objected to my performances.

like trying to fill a pail with a small hole

Methinks it would take more than one hole. We know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall.

We know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall.

Only a very deep-seated sense of decorum stops me from adding the next line.

I read it on this board. What does "Timor mortis conturbat me" mean?

Also what does "Alea Jacta est" mean?

Timor mortis conturbat me
The fear of death disturbs me.

Alea Jacta est
The die is cast.

Thanks

O Captain, my Captain,you granted authority to those who would "beg to differ" and I now beseech you for that purpose. My view is that there are several errors in the thread that want correcting and I shall offer the following.
Let's start w/ the Latin quote . I do not know whether the gladiators always said, in a ritualistic fashion, exactly the same words, but the Latin phrase is usually quoted "Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus!" The English translation is, "Hail, Caesar! We who are about to die salute you! ("Salutamus" is pres. indic. , 1st person,pl. "we salute" (The saluters) ) "te" (Caesar) (the salutee), hence the pronoun "te" is in the accusAtive "case". Nouns and pronouns have "case". Verbs do not. "Morituri" would take a minute to explain and I rather doubt that anyone is interested except Bobyoungblatt who could authoritatively and succinctly explain it to all of us. Hate to be picky, but wanted to set record straight.

lectisternium - an ancient Greek/Roman religious rite in which the images of gods were placed on couches and food spread before them

I am reminded (belatedly) that this is now called "football season" in the U.S.

Scribbler said Let's start w/ the Latin quote . I do not know whether the gladiators always said, in a ritualistic fashion, exactly the same words, but the Latin phrase is usually quoted "Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus!"

"Salutant" was engraved in an amphitheatre somewhere (can't remember which one if I ever knew - I saw it in a photograph). There is a well-researched book about the "ludi" I once borrowed, but I can't remember the name of it at this distance in time. However, I will freely concede that they may have also used salutamus.

I must have been tired when I wrote "accusative" when I of course meant "active".

And they only used "Caesar" when Caesar was physically present. If they had saluted anyone but the real Caesar and the real Caesar got to hear about it, there would have been free ring-centre tickets to the Roman circuses all round, along with the wild animals.

I believe they used either "Domine" or "Dominus" (or perhaps the person's name) for anyone else. Rich nobles used to pay for the games both in Rome and elsewhere. Claudius, for instance, "paid" for games when he was made city magistrate. Since either Tiberius or Caligula was Caesar at the time, I don't think it would have been either politic or healthy for either the (surviving) gladiators or Claudius to be talking about Caesar like that ... Sejanus would have had them if it was Tiberius, and Caligula was mad as a hatter and had people murdered for much smaller crimes. Or no crime at all, as a matter of fact.

Scribbler noted: I do not know whether the gladiators always said, in a ritualistic fashion, exactly the same words, but the Latin phrase is usually quoted "Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus!"

It is my understanding that "Morituri" is a future active participle, i.e. a verbal adjective which can therefore be used as a noun, as in the phrase "Morituri te salutant/salutamus" (I understand that it is used as a noun simply because there is no other nominal element for the subject position). In this case, "morituri" is a plural noun that could accompany any verb in the plural. So grammatically speaking, both "Morituri te salutant" and "Morituri te salutamus" are correct. If you were to add a pronoun to the sentence, such as "nos", "illi", that would certainly determine which verb form is adequate.

I have more often heard/read "Morituri te salutant" than "te salutamus", but this may be a fluke. Or maybe, as Scribbler notes, it was a fossilized, ritualistic phrase...

All Hail Four Beautiful posts in a row!Thanks to each of you,Scribbler,tsuwm,Capital Kiwi, and last but not least, lovely Marianna!

Morituri te salutant/salutamus

Certainly if you were talking about the gladiators from the comfort of your chiseling booth while the animals and gladiators were safely locked up in their cages then you would use the third person salutant. If you were one of the gladiators about to die you would use the first person salutamus.

The first time I remember seeing the word morituri it was as the title of a movie about a Japanese ship during World War II and since I thought (erroneously) at the time that it fit the form af a possible Japanese word (it would have to have been Moritsuri as I now understand these things, I may still be wrong) I thought that the word was Japanese.

ancient-style dining
I've heard of 1000 year old eggs in Chinese cuisine, but I don't know that I would enjoy 2000 year old food.

2000 year old food

Morituri te salutamus, salami!

morituri
You, Marianna, CapK and Scribbler have, among you, managed to cover all the bases on this, and you have certainly stated the meaning. All I would add is that morituri may be strange due to the fact the morior is a deponent verb -- one of a class of bastard verbs which are conjugated as if they were in the passive mood but are actually in the active mood. (Then there are the semi-deponent verbs, a bunch of real bastards which act like deponent verbs only in certain tenses, and some of which have their direct object in the ablative case instead of the accusative. For my sins, I once had to memorize which ones those were, and after 45 years remember they are: utor, fruor, fungor, potior and vescor. Strange what useless stuff sticks in your memory when you have to memorize it in your youth. It's like the German prepositions which take the dative vs. those that take the accusative or the genitive, which I can also remember and reel off.

which I can also remember and reel off...

Fun party trick, huh?

aus bei mit nach seit von zu, bis, durch fuer, gegen ohne um wieder an auf hinter neben unter vor zwischen

where does ober go?

and after 45 years remember

Sr. Ruth Marie, SND, had a neat way to teach us the most used verbs which take avoir instead of etre.

Sung to the tune of Yankee Doodle Dandy :
alle, parte, sorti, venu, devenue, retourne, arrive, reste, rentre, entree, tombe, nee et mort.

Spelling is probably awful. Excuse moi!

wow

the German prepositions which take the dative vs. those that take the accusative or the genitive

I just remember bis, durch, für, gegen, ohne, um are accusative because it flows so well. The other ones are dative.

I can't remember any prepositions taking genitive.

Friends, AWADers, countrymen, lend me your ears. My favorite gladiator is Fludarius Marirade. (gladiator fighting is way better than WWF) Speaking of WWF, I think the Worldwide Wildlife Fund should get the letters WWF for all there websites and stuff. In my opinion anyone can take them, the wrestlers are to stupid to even know what letters are.

-Scott rough_collie@dog.com

Speaking of WWF, I think the Worldwide Wildlife Fund should get the letters WWF for all there websites and stuff.

Well, you're in luck. Seeing as the Worldwide Wildlife Fund is an organization, http://www.wwf.org is their website.

Well, I guess the World Wildlife Fund was actually smart enough (Which isn't much of an award, because anyone's smarter than wrestling idiots) to take wwf.org, while the Wicked Wrestling Freaks got wwf.com

-Scott rough_collie@dog.com

To Bob Youngblatt Salve, Frater! >utor, fruor, fungior and vescor I laughed out loud when I read that. I had been tempted, ere this, to suggest to you that you and I might have this communal bond (among other interests) like a fraternity password, used (a la "shibboleth", Shoshanna) to separate the brethren from the gentiles. We did NOT have the same Latin teacher. ( I calculate I am three years older than you and from a different part of the country)Perhaps we had the same texts. I trouble the AWAD group w/ this mindless trivia in order to raise another trivial Q to you Latin scholars out there. Were you also required to remember that, " Utor, fruor, fungior,potior and vescor (and were the verbs in this same order?) take the ablative instead of the accusative?". It really seems a rather obscure rule, of not much practical use. I took six years of Latin, enjoyed it at the time and it has proved quite useful and enjoyable over the years. Vocabulary, grammar, syntax, and much more have atrophied with age, but I could not forget,by strongest stroke of the "Delete" key, that " utor, etc. etc." Could there have been a conspiracy among Latin teachers to impose this recondite wisdom on submissive students? Were we all required to memorize the same passages or were teachers permitted,ad libitum, to choose their own favorites. The De Bellico Gallica bit was obligatory, of course, but what about, "Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientiam nostram" down through, and a bit past, "O tempora! O mores!" Or "Arma virumque cano ... Troiae qui primus ab oris, etc" or "O fons Bandusiae, splendidior vitro" "Carthago delenda est! etc, etc(BTW, I gave the Spelschlocker, poor dear, the night off. Didn't want her to blow a thingummy with all these funny words). Shall we, band of brothers (sisters,too) go to our separate graves with these common bits of arcane knowledge without knowing that other friends out there somewhere have been given these self-same miraculous keys to human understanding and the secrets of the universe? Shall we compare notes? The test papers have already been graded; ergo, Honor Code does not apply. I sense the o'erwhelming smell of an era that is (alas, say I ) quite gone forever.
Please note that the foregoing "draft" quotes are from memory. Scribbler is too lazy and tired to check their accuracy on paper and not practiced enough to go the on-line route. Have fun correcting me. A final word. I daresay this proposal is not YART and therefore suggest a new acro-breviation that may be applicable : TABNGAD i.e. "THANKS ANYWAY, BUT NOBODY GIVES A DAMN."
Semper idem, ....... Scribbler

Latin
Great God! Scribbler -- your Latin teacher, if still alive, will be coming for you to give you a dozen of the best, and if passed along to the great Bennet's in the sky, will surely haunt you for at least the next 7 years.

You misquoted Cicero. It's, "Quousque tandem, Catalina, patientia nostra abuteris?" patientia nostra is in the ablative, not the accusative as you wrote it. Why? Because abuteris is a compound of utor!!!

German propositions
The dative ones are aus, bei, mit, nach, seit, von, zu.

German genetive prepositions
anstatt, trotz, während, wegen, innerhalb, außerhalb

Scribbler remembered: The De Bellico Gallica bit was obligatory, of course

Did you mean the beginning of De Bello Gallico, where it goes "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres"? I think it was one of the most interesting Latin texts I ever had to study...

Scribbler, did you lose your Return/Enter key or do you always talk without taking a breath?

Scribbler wrote (breathlessly):

I sense the o'erwhelming smell of an era that is (alas, say I ) quite gone forever.

I can say that this era continues in at least one place. I spent my high school years at Boston Latin School (oldest public school in the country - founded in 1635). It is a 6-year school, and Latin is required during the first 5 years. I'm in my thirties, but I know that this tradition, with the many examples of Latin teacher torture you cited, lives on.

JAZZO > did you lose, etc. As a Southerner, I TALK very slowly, taking breaths as needed. As a TYPIST, I also type slowly, just a bit faster than H&P.(Generally do OK w/ WORD. However, as an AWAD poster, I cannot make anything (in this format or whatever it's called) come out the way I intend for it to do. Sorry, I'll keep trying.

Marianna - > Did you mean? A. Yes It seems a very personal way, does it not, of bridging together 2000+ years.

BYB > Marcus Tullius & abutor - - Mea culpa, Magister I admire your scholarship even as you correct my errors. As I said earlier, BYB could "authoritatively and succinctly settle such" Latin matters. The lawyer in me, however, compels me to offer some words, not exculpatory words, but merely words in mitigation. (a) I am pleased that, at least, my memory was true. I remembered (after about 50 years) "patentia nostra" , wrote it that way and then -alas! - CHANGED it to accusative, thinking, in English, that it didn't "look right" "How long, O Catiline, will you abuse our patience?" and forgetting about COMPOUNDS of utor taking the ablative. Should we add "abutor" to the list of 5 or add "and their compounds" to it? (b) You should also note the time of the post was after 1AM (as this one is)and Scribbler stated he was tired and not bothering to check sources. (c) Not only that, but the dog ate my homework and (d) Dad had a wreck while driving me to school this morning. All things considered, Teach, could you see your way clear to raising the grade to an A-, It would mean a lot to me. Thanks, Scribbler

When reading Caesar, the teacher never bothered to point out that the reason Caesar was willing to spend so many years in Gaul after he had completed his original mission to prevent further destabilization, was that he was getting rich from his lion's share of the value of captives sold as slaves. He went there only moderately wealthy, but became one of the three richest men in Rome. The other two got their money the same way.

Scribbler's mea culpa

Scribblere certior facto, as Caesar used to say, he does just fine for an old guy.

For all you Latin fans who say how much you enjoyed reading Caesar, I thought he came off sounding like a pompous ass. I enjoyed Cicero, but there are lots of Latin geeks who consider him one of the world's great bores. My idea of the world's greatest bore is Livy.

A pompous ass indeed! Yes, I would agree with that as well... yet, the pompous ass told stories of discovering foreign lands, their peoples and traditions, setting up camps in dark forests and of course those gory battles. Translating all of that was a fascinating to me, I felt as if I were establishing a unique link between the history of 2000 years ago and my own history. Having said that, some of the descriptions of the battles were graphic enough to make us all queasy in the classroom!

And he studiously avoided "I" and "me".

Actually, Julius was a liar. Uderzo and Goscinny have written the definitive history of Roman Gaul and it was divided into four parts. Sorry folks!

And if the Gauls had been consulted, they would have divided it into a dozen parts.

Gaius Julius said that? Only three parts? Of all the gall!

But Caesar beat the ass off Pompey.

Since we have multiple translators aBoard, can anyone help w/ the following quotes? I believe I have stated them correctly. There is a book of modern vintage (a "pony" !!!!???) if help is needed. These are rather difficult.

"In curro meo ab Officina Baiuoaria Mechanica fabricato habeo machinam quae litteras per aethera transmittit."

"Meum balineum calidum verticosum cum aqua scintillante fontana Gallica impletum est. "

I'll cite authority to any wishing to have it.

I get the idea the first one is talking about radio, and the second about having a shower bath, but can't get some of the details.

In curro meo ab Officina Baiuoaria Mechanica fabricato habeo machinam quae litteras per aethera transmittit.

Well, I've had a crack at it. It ain't good Latin as far as I can tell {"fabricato habeo"?) But Bill's at least partly right about radio, or maybe it just presages the air mail service!

Here's what I get literally:

In (or "Because of") the hurry to get out of (or just "leave"?) the "Baiuoarian Mechnical"(?) office (or "factory"?) I build I have (I have built?)a machine which transmits messages through the air.

Neither "Baiuoaria" nor "Mechanica" appear in either of my Latin dictionaries - possibly a deficiency but probably because Baiuoaria is a name. Whatever, it's not from the classical period. Leonardo perhaps?

Give, Scribbler!

CapK reminds us all: Actually, Julius was a liar. Uderzo and Goscinny have written the definitive history of Roman Gaul

Yup. that's where I learned all I needed to know, and have felt no need to consult any other sources. Not even Robert Graves (hi, Faldage).

I still think Rome would have been better off if Caesar had become Emperor. The man who made Octavian his heir surely was the greatest benefactor Rome ever knew.

O Captain, my Captain, I'm so glad you asked. First, the translations. The speakers are old-fashioned YUPPIES, and the colloquies take place during those bewitching after-work hours at a local watering hole. The first speaker (these are a bit dated) says "I have a fax machine in my BMW." Magister (BYB), please correct my Sid Caesar faux-German, but "Officina Baiuoaria, etc" is asserted to be the Latin equivalent of "Bayerische(n) Motor Werken" etc,

The second speaker says " My Jacuzzi ( I might have used "Charybdis" but maybe it is a Trademark) is filled w/ Perrier.("aqua scintillante fontana Gallica") The quotations come from books by Henry Beard, LINGUA LATINA OCCASIONIBUS OMNIBUS and LINGUA LATINA MULTO PLURIBUS OCCASIONIBUS (Latin For Even More Occasions), the latter published 2744 a.u.c. Beard has, in English, a clever slant on American culture of the late 80s and his Latin seems to me to be simultaneously proper and creative (op. cit.) BYB, these may be a bit infra dig. for you, but you might take a look if you have not seen the books. CapK, Marianna,others interested, ck it out.

de balneis bmwiisque
I'm always behind everyone since my computer is in my office, so on Monday morning I see all this stuff, and it takes a good while to read it all.

I don't have a Latin dictionary in the office, but when I read the original post, I did get the one about the jacuzzi and sparkling water, but missed the BMW one. No comment on the atrocity of this dog latin.

For a really elegant modern translation into Latin, let me recommend Winnie Ille Pu, an excellent, and funny, translation of A.A.Milne's classic into classical Latin. I forget the name of the translator (the book is at home). I contains the immortal line, "De heffalumpibus semper dubitandum est."

Magister, My copy of WINNIE ILLE PU is a paperback (revised edition with notes and glossary), but it is peppered throughout w/ the Pooh drawings. The Translator is, as I assume you have checked by now, Alexander Lenard. For the benefit of others who may be interested, Lenard, born in 1910 in Budapest, fled from the Nazis and ended up in Brazil. The translation of Pooh into Latin was the work of seven years, a process which was started by translating it into German. Lenard was fluent in twelve languages at the time of his death in 1972. The cover of the book proudly asserts that Winnie Ille Pu is the only book in Latin ever to grace the New York Times bestseller list. I liked (Cicero style) "O tempora , o mos ablutionis retroauricularis!" which Notes translate as "O this modern custom of washing behind the ears!" cf. "O tempora! O mores!" Winnie Ille Pu is best enjoyed by me, with my lapsed Latin, with a copy of Winnie the Pooh at my elbow for ready reference.

The thought of a bunch of tipsy yuppies, G&Ts waving wildly in the air, as they slaughter Latin is possibly one of the most frightening thoughts that has ever crossed my mind. Timeo yuppiensis ...

"Ober" oder "ueber"?

So weit ich weiss, gibt es auf Deutsch keinen Ausdruck wie "ober." Man musste belligerentyouth danach fragen.

"...fled from the Nazis and ended up in Brazil"

Is there a word meaning "serendipity" in the context of bad luck?