Recent discussions on the number of speakers recorded for various languages got me thinking about Cantonese. When "Chinese" is mentioned, Mandarin is normally meant, but I read once, somewhere in the mid-80s, that Cantonese may, then at least, have had more speakers. Of the four main actors in Crouching Tiger, only one spoke classical Mandarin before filming began, which might also suggest that the official language of the PRC and the ROC is not necessarily the most common form of spoken Chinese. Once more into the breach, my dear Sinophiles.
I can't really comment on the language used, except to say that it sounds marvelous!
I thought Cantonese was mainly spoken in Hong Kong and a handful of other regions, and not that wide spread.
Anyway, I saw the film yesterday and was impressed. I highly recommended it (not just for Sinophiles). My only quibble is that it failed to find a suitable pace. The visuals are stunning. Just my 2CNY :-)
Which Chinese is bigger? I have read that 50 years agonatives of the island were commonly 7 feet tall. If they still are, Taiwanese are the bigger.
I thought Cantonese was mainly spoken in Hong Kong
Yes indeed. I'll check as soon as Kaisheng gets in about relative numbers of speakers. He's from Taiwan and does not speak Cantonese. Siu-ling in chorus speaks both so I could ask her too. Not sure where she's from right off hand.
Ænigma wants him to be Kajar and her to be Siva. Siva I know but who's Kajar?
the Kajar dynasty in Persia (1794-1925)?
Thanks, tsuwm. Ænigma sure has some interesting holes and interesting non-holes. [nonidempotent]
In reply to:
tuswm: the Kajar dynasty in Persia (1794-1925)?
Do you mean Kajar or Khazar??? Atomica.com found NO entry for Kajar, but here's what they have to say about the Khazars:
Khazars, ancient Turkic people who appeared in Transcaucasia in the 2d cent. A.D. and subsequently settled in the lower Volga region. They rose to great power; the Khazar empire at its height (8th–10th cent. A.D.) extended from the northern shores of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea as far west as Kiev. The Khazars maintained friendly relations with the Byzantine Empire. Their empire came to an end in 965, when they were defeated by the duke of Kiev. In the 8th cent. the Khazar nobility embraced Judaism and thus are believed by some to be the ancestors of many East European Jews.
On the Chinese languages - some friends who lived in mainland China once told me that Cantonese was the written language and Mandarin the spoken - or was it t'other way 'round?
By the way, here's a question for you all: Have you heard the latest about Red China?
Shoshannah
Sh>Do you mean Kajar or Khazar???
do a google search on'kajar dynasty' (163 hits)... founded by Aga Muhammad Khan.
Cantonese/Mandarin
No, no. I don't know much about Chinese, but I do know that Cantonese is the Chinese dialect spoken in southern China, centering around Canton (Guangzhou); Mandarin is the northern dialect spoken in the area centering on Beijing. There are several other dialects, including Fukien (east coast). The various dialects differ from each other to such an extent that they are not mutually intellegible; a Cantonese speaker will understand very little of what a Mandarin speaker says. Of course, the written language, being composed of ideographs, is universal, since it does not depend on the spoken language.
It has been said, and I have not seen anyone dispute it, that most of the Chinese in the U.S. speak Cantonese. During the period in the late 1800s when Chinese emigrated to the West Coast (primarily) and later to other parts of the U.S., most of them came from southern China and spoke Cantonese. This is why Chinese food, as served in Chinese restaurants in the U.S., up to about 20 years ago, was almost exclusively Cantonese. When Sichuan and Hunan food was introduced, it was like a revolution -- we roundeyes had never dreamed that Chinese food could be like that, being accustomed to the Cantonese style only. Of course the joke was on us. It appears that in China, Cantonese is the gourmet style of cooking; the imperial family, although northerners (from Mongolia, actually) ate Cantonese food exclusively.
It has been said, and I have not seen anyone dispute it, that most of the Chinese in the U.S. speak Cantonese. During the period in the late 1800s when Chinese emigrated to the West Coast (primarily) and later to other parts of the U.S., most of them came from southern China and spoke Cantonese.
This goes along with what Kaisheng said. If you go to a Chinatown district most of what you hear (if not English) will be Cantonese. Later immigrants have been mostly Mandarin speakers. He also said that he believes that Mandarin has the largest number of native speakers of all the languages we lump together as Chinese.
In reply to:
do a google search on'kajar dynasty' (163 hits)... founded by Aga Muhammad Khan.
Thanks Tsuwm - I did but had no luck until I found it using either "kadjar" or "qajar"! In searching, spelling is everything!
Shoshannah
By the way - no one answered my question, thus: Have you heard the latest about Red China? Come on - this is a real oldie!
There are around 900 million native Mandarin speakers in the world, only some 70 million Cantonese speakers. Within that mass of Mandarin speakers there are still many dialects which are very hard to understand for speakers of standard Mandarin -- something close to the dialect spoken around Beijing. This standard is also the basis for the national language of Taiwan, where I live. The major differences between what you hear on the streets of Taipei and Beijing are in accent and, in some instances, slight shifts in vocabulary.
More distant dialects may have words that are never heard in standard Mandarin which sometimes derive from different grammar.
In Crouching Tiger, Zhang Yi, the wayward young swordfighter speaks Mandarin with a distinct north Chinese accent. The dashing Xinjiang chief is played by a Taiwanese actor and speaks with a Taiwanese accent. The other two leads -- Michelle Yeoh and Chow Yun-fat -- speak fluent Mandarin but with Cantonese accents.
Once you leave Mandarin behind, things are harder still. The different Chinese languages, such as Mandarin and Cantonese are as distinct as, say, Italian and Spanish, though the Chinese authorities, ever keen to emphasise unity, tend to refer to them all as dialects.
So its not true that the written form of Mandarin is universally comprehensible -- though a Cantonese speaker will get the gist of something written in Mandarin. Cantonese, and all the others, has unique characters for words it has but others don't.
Until the early years of the last century, classical Chinese with its own completely separate grammar and vocabulary, was used for all official writing and so formed a bridge between speakers of different languages. Vernacular writing was only used for less well-regarded things such as popular literature and the prompt books for marketplace storytelling. That changed in the 20th century when a standard written language representing the spoken forms was developed, catching on quickly with the drive for modernization.
Since most emigration stemmed from south China, well-established overseas communities tend to speak Cantonese or another southern language. That's changing though as more and more Mandarin speakers have left to settle among the barbarians.
And then there are several non-Chinese languages spoken widely by non-Han Chinese some of which have several million speakers, but many of which are being smothered by the spread of Mandarin. Here in Taiwan, there are the vestiges of several languages spoken by the Aboriginal communities which are far distant from anything found elsewhere in the world.
Here in Taiwan, there are the vestiges of several languages spoken by the Aboriginal communities which are far distant from anything found elsewhere in the world.
Thanks for that, salmon. The quoted piece above caught my eye as I read somewhere, I think it was here, that the island of Taiwan was the original home of the ancestors of the Polynesian peoples, including NZ Maori. Can anyone confirm or correct this?
more and more Mandarin speakers have left to settle among the barbarians
And they bring all those things that take up no room in a suitcase : talents. Perhaps even a few with genius, for poetry, music, painting, math and great recipes for the Inner Man. We will be the more enriched by their presence.
wow
Max Quordlepleen asks Can anyone confirm or correct this?
I recently read "Guns, Germs, Steel" by Jared Diamond, which gives an account of human history in terms of geography not culture. In the book, he marshals various bits of evidence to make the case that Taiwan was the first island in a series of islands hops which took the intrepid originally Eurasian seafarers to every inhabitable island in the Pacific, from Hawaii to New Zealand. They even got as far as Madagascar it seems. The migration is central to Diamond's theories because he uses it to show how the subsequent development of these isolated societies from people genetically and culturally similar was constrained by their environment. Some islands allowed abundant crop cultivation and complex societies grew; other islands didn't suit the crops the settlers brought and had little of their own so the settlers reverted to hunter-gathering.
On a grander and more complicated scale and with many more variables at work, says the book, this is what has happened to all mankind.
All right then. I admit my ignorance. I always thought there was a Chinese language and the more time spend in AWAD the more I find that there is really not ONE language but a whole slew of languages that are called 'Chinese' by the "New World" peoples.
How many languages are there?
Dear salmon: What did you make of Jared Diamond's statement early in the book that the average New Guinea native was brighter than the average European? It seems to me that he was comparing New Guinea elite with average Europeans.
wwh>...Jared Diamond's statement early in the book that the average New Guinea native was brighter than the average European? It seems to me that he was comparing New Guinea elite with average Europeans.
Bill - I haven't read the book to which you refer, but it sounds like you are suggesting that Europeans & other Westerners are 'obviously' more intelligent and advanced than those from the East - for instance, many Westerners actually believe that so much of the good things of life were created by the West!
In fact, the LIBRARY, for example, first existed in Ancient Egypt, and the Mesopotamians had a culture far grander and 'higher' than any of those that developed so very much later in Europe! Of course, WRITING began with cuneiform in Mesopotamia (and perhaps at the same time as hieroglyphics in Egypt and further east with the same idea in China) long before it existed in Greece/Rome and the 'West'!
As a doctor, what's your opinion of the Chinese (and other Eastern) forms of healing?
Shoshannah
the LIBRARY, for example, first existed in Ancient Egypt
I think we can safely say, if Greece and Rome were considered Western civilizations, than Egypt was as well because there is evidence that they interacted quite a bit. The columns originally thought to be of Greek and Roman origin have been traced back to Egypt. Though the dipictions of their gods were different, all three had similar stock mythological deities.
By ancient library do you mean the one in Alexandria. I'm guessing you don't because Alexandria was founded by Alexander the Great. I seem to recall a mention in a world history class of the first libraries that let people borrow books, but I don't remember where they were.