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Posted By: BranShea Buridan' s ass - 06/02/10 11:02 AM
Buridan, ass and all ended up in the Seine, for what reason I don't know.

From François Villon's Ballade des dames du temps jadis:

Où est la très sage Helloïs, ,
Pour qui fut chastré et puis moyne
Pierre Esbaillart à Saint-Denis?
Pour son amour ot cest essoyne.
Semblablement, où est la royne
Qui commanda que Buridan
Fust gecté en ung sac en Saine?
Mais où sont les neiges d'antan!


Where is the very wise Heloise,
For whom was castrated, and then (made) a monk,
Pierre Esbaillart (Abelard) in Saint-Denis ?
For his love he suffered this sentence.
Similarly, where is the Queen (Jeanne de Navarre)
Who ordered that Buridan
Be thrown in a sack into the Seine?
Oh, where are the snows of yesteryear!


Posted By: Jackie Re: Buridan' s ass - 06/05/10 01:15 AM
Aha--now I know why we were taught in high school ONLY the last line as "an old French saying"!
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: Catch-22 or metastability - 06/05/10 01:29 AM
Buridan, ass and all ended up in the Seine, for what reason I don't know.

I don't see Buridan's ass (i.e., âne or Equus asinus) in the sack that gets thrown into the Seine.

Dictes moy où n'en quel pays est Flora la belle Romaine
Posted By: Jackie Re: Catch-22 or metastability - 06/05/10 01:45 AM
Dictes moy où n'en quel What language is this, please?
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: Catch-22 or metastability - 06/05/10 08:15 AM
What language is this, please?

Middle French (link).
Posted By: latishya Re: Catch-22 or metastability - 06/05/10 08:47 AM
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
What language is this, please?

Middle French (link).


shabbash! I thought it must have been an older type of French. yay me.
Posted By: BranShea Re: Catch-22 or metastability - 06/05/10 12:13 PM
Alas, I did not mean his ass. Villon's poem got immortality support; George Brassens put it to music in the 1950-s.

Ballade


Posted By: Jackie Re: Catch-22 or metastability - 06/06/10 01:35 AM
Alas, I did not mean his ass. laugh

latishya, it's good to see your fonts again! You've been missed.
Posted By: BranShea Re: Catch-22 or metastability - 06/06/10 05:40 PM
Hello again Latishya.
link

"For example, classical Latin equus was replaced in common parlance by vulgar Latin caballus, derived from Gaulish caballos (Delamare 2003 p.96), giving Modern French cheval, Catalan cavall, Occitan caval (chaval), Italian cavallo, Portuguese cavalo, Spanish caballo, Romanian cal, and (borrowed from Anglo-Norman) English cavalry and chivalry." (From the article)

Here is equus again. From the article it seems like Old French was more like vulgar Latin? It looks a bit like Esperanto. Is there any literature or well known document left written in Old French?
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: Romancing the Tobue - 06/06/10 07:45 PM
Is there any literature or well known document left written in Old French?

There is La Chanson de Roland (link). It exists in multiple MSS. An excerpt:

Carles li reis, nostre emper[er]e magnes
Set anz tuz pleins ad estet en Espaigne:
Tresqu'en la mer cunquist la tere altaigne.
N'i ad castel ki devant lui remaigne;
Mur ne citet n'i est remes a fraindre,
Fors Sarraguce, ki est en une muntaigne.
Li reis Marsilie la tient, ki Deu nen aimet;
Mahumet sert e Apollin recleimet:
Nes poet guarder que mals ne l'i ateignet.


It was composed towards the end of the Old French period. For some French that is older, you can do to the Strasbourg Oaths (part of which are in Romance) in the 9th century:

Pro Deo amur et pro Christian poblo et nostro commun salvament, d'ist di in avant, in quant Deus savir et podir me dunat, si salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo et in ajudha et in cadhuna cosa, si cum om per dreit son fradra salvar dift, in o quid il me altresi fazet, et ab Ludher nul plaid numquam prindrai, qui, meon vol, cist meon fradre Karle in damno sit.

(English: For the love of God and for Christendom and our common salvation, from this day onwards, as God will give me the wisdom and power, I shall protect this brother of mine Charles, with aid or anything else, as one ought to protect one's brother, so that he may do the same for me, and I shall never knowingly make any covenant with Lothair that would harm this brother of mine Charles.)

There is also some Old High German in there:

In godes minna ind in thes christiânes folches ind unsêr bêdhero gehaltnissî, fon thesemo dage frammordes, sô fram sô mir got gewizci indi mahd furgibit, sô haldih thesan mînan bruodher, sôso man mit rehtu sînan bruodher scal, in thiu thaz er mig sô sama duo, indi mit Ludheren in nohheiniu thing ne gegango, the mînan willon imo ce scadhen werdhên.

(English: For the love of God and Christendom and the salvation of us both, from this day on, as God will give me the wisdom and power, I shall protect this brother of mine, as one ought to protect one's brother, so that he may do the same for me, and I shall never go along with Lothair in anything that, by my will, would harm him [Louis].)

(Link)

It so happened today I was skimming through an historical grammar of French. It's online, but might not be available outside the US (link).
Posted By: BranShea Re: Romancing the Tobue - 06/06/10 09:39 PM
Ah, Old lessons coming back to me through Old French and Old High German.
La Chanson de Roland stood at the beginning of our Dutch literature lessons. As one of the earliest "Knight Romances" in Middel Dutch. In fact the anonymous translation of La Chanson de Roland, known as "Roelandslied", dating from the 13th century, so about 200 years after the orignal work.
Posted By: RayButler Re: Catch-22 or metastability - 06/08/10 01:50 PM
Originally Posted By: BranShea

link

"For example, classical Latin equus was replaced in common parlance by vulgar Latin caballus, derived from Gaulish caballos (Delamare 2003 p.96), giving Modern French cheval, Catalan cavall, Occitan caval (chaval), Italian cavallo, Portuguese cavalo, Spanish caballo, Romanian cal, and (borrowed from Anglo-Norman) English cavalry and chivalry." (From the article)



And Irish: capall.
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: Catch-22 or metastability - 06/09/10 02:30 AM
And Irish: capall.

This looks like a loan from Latin rather than a survival of a Proto-Celtic word.
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