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Posted By: Wordwind Golden - 11/01/04 08:44 PM
This fall is golden--gold all around: hickories, locusts, sycamores. I've never seen so much gold. Midas must have been having a retrospective trip off the wagon this last week.

Posted By: Zed Re: Golden - 11/02/04 12:08 AM
I love to watch the leaves on a blustery day, like the trees are throwing handfulls of gold and red confetti.

Posted By: dxb Re: Golden - 11/02/04 03:13 PM
hickories, locusts, sycamores

Locusts???



Posted By: Wordwind Re: Golden - 11/02/04 04:04 PM
A frequently seen native locust in the South is the honey locust. Compound leaves and distinctive flowers: heavy, almost drupelike white flower clusters in late spring. I saw extraordinarily beatiful honey locusts this weekend outside of the Hyatt Regency in Reston, Virginia--very mature specimens with the distinctive bark of the mature locust: elephant-skin-textured with occasional cracks in it like the cracks you sometimes see in dried field clay.

There is also a native locust called the black locust, but I'm not on speaking terms with that one.

Posted By: dxb Re: Golden - 11/02/04 04:18 PM
I thought of locusts as flying about in large, unwelcome, hungry hordes. Sort of tartars of the insect world! But you say there are locust trees as well. Live and learn! Thank you for that.

Why are they called locust trees?

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Why locust? - 11/02/04 05:22 PM
I don't know--and I just spent quite a while on the Internet trying to find a reference that revealed the answer. I will suppose that it could be tied into the fact that the honey locust pods are edible and that bees enjoy the flowers, although the poisonous black locust has blossoms that are preferred by the bee, according to one site.

Maybe tsuwm or jheem will look in here and give us some insight about the etymology of the word 'locust'--tsuwm? jheem?

Posted By: tsuwm Re: Why locust? - 11/02/04 08:49 PM
well, this gets a bit complex, but basically the insect came first, and then the carob-tree became known as the locust-tree due to the resemblance of the carob pod to the bug; and finally the New-World trees so called may possibly have received their name from the resemblance of their fruit either to the carob-pod or the insect itself.

in the first case, this OED note is of some interest:
[The Gr. name properly denoting the insect, is applied in the Levant to the carob-pod, from some resemblance in form; and from very early times it has been believed by many that the ‘locusts’ eaten by John the Baptist were these pods. The application to the cassia-pod is due to confusion with the carob-pod.]


also, not too long ago (cf. Civil War draft riots) the clubs carried by NYC cops were called locust-clubs, from the wood used.
Posted By: of troy Re: Why locust? - 11/02/04 09:26 PM
native locust (some varieties) have thorns-- even in the bark of the tree trunk! they were often planted as hedges/cattle fencing (before barbed wire)

there are hybid/thornless varieties, but one can occationally come across a native tree--its always a memorable experience.. (there is one in riverside drive park, about 110th street in manhattan, another can be found near the tressle crossing the LIRR in Little Neck-(both locations in NYC)

Posted By: Faldage Re: Why locust? - 11/02/04 11:39 PM
it has been believed by many that the ‘locusts’ eaten by John the Baptist were these pods.

Of course many, if not most, insects are treyf, but some are not. It may well be that the locust was one of the latter. Doesn't stop the carob being known as St. John's bread.

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Why locust? - 11/03/04 12:43 AM
Most excellent information from tsuwm, of troy, and Faladagio! I like the theory that John the Baptist may have been eating pods from trees. There's a pulse in that theory, and I've just made a silly pun. Also, of troy, it is very interesting to think of the thorny locust as being a prototype of sorts for barbed wire, apocryphal or not. And, Fald': what's this 'treyf' business? Am I out of the loop again?

Posted By: of troy Re: Why locust? - 11/03/04 04:22 AM
treyf is the hebrew word for 'unclean'--pork is treyf, and so are insects (and insects of the sea--any sea animal with an ecto skeleton) -locust are an exception.. and having a tree and insect with the same name--it might be that the fruit of the tree is really what is being talked about --but i don't know of any vegetable products, from the ground or trees, that aren't kosher--so why locust tree's would be mentioned is kind of strange.

some foods are not considered kosher for passover--(and some like chocolate are accepted by some groups, and rejected by others as being acceptable foods for passover!)

kosher basicaly means clean-- foods are kosher, and so are kitchens and utensils and other things..(or they are made kosher by real and ritual cleaning!) glatt kosher is kosher to the extreme-

here in north east (and in NY in particular) many hebrew and yidish words are part of the lexis.

Posted By: jheem Re: Why locust? - 11/03/04 12:48 PM
Adding to what tsuwm and of troy have said:

Locust, langouste, and lobster are all ultimately from the Latin locusta 'a marine shell-fish, lobster; locust'. The AHD has this to say etymologically: "Middle English lopster, lobstere, from Old English loppestre, alteration (perhaps influenced by loppe, lobbe, spider)". Latin locusta is thought to come from the PIE root *lek- in words for 'extremities' and 'to bend, flex, jump, leap, hop, fidget'. Our word leg from the Old Norse leggr is related; also Skt r.ks.ala 'ankle joint of ungulates' / 'Fußgelenk bei Huftieren' Pokorny 673.

Yiddish treyf means 'unkosher', e.g., pork is always treyf, but a nice brisket could be treyf is it came into contact with dairy food, and otherwise OK meat could be unkosher if it wasn't slaughtered properly or was shot or otherwise had punctured skin. The Yiddish word comes from the Hebrew word TRPhH 'animal torn by wild animals; animal with organic defect; ritually forbidden food' < TRPh 'to tear to pieces; rend, pluck', cf. Arabic tarafa 'it grazed' said of a camel. Locusts are indeed not treyf, but are the only insects I know of that aren't. I remember a funny note in Rashi's commentary on the Torah forbidden French Jews from eating escargot.

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