Some commentaries made about the corrections proposed by the spell checker have made me remind a 'fortune cookie' I read on the net a long time ago that pictures very well the way machines understand human language.
"The meat is rotten, but the booze is holding out." Computer Translation of "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak"
I should explain that my last post was a reply to Juanmaria's first post but it got slapped on the end instead of directly after his message. Apologies for the confusion it created.....
“Never go to bed without learning a new thing”. That’s my motto. This GIGO reminds me of one more fortune cookie -this one was written when computers were expensive and we were kings-:
Gallois's Revelation: If you put tomfoolery in a computer nothing comes out but tomfoolery. But this tomfoolery, having passed through a very expensive machine, is somehow ennobled and none dare criticize it.
Ah, Juanmaria. This explains why so many slow-learners are insomniacs!
Your anecdote reminds me of a time when my boss categorically stated that I was wrong because the inputted data could not be incorrect. It had gone through the computer, for Christ's sake! Later, he retracted his statement(short of an apology) after it was found that, after thorough rechecking, that the computer (horror of horrors) was wrong!! Or rather, it was incorrectly programmed (but not by me, I hasten to add!!!!),
All of which reminds me of a sign I once saw on the wall of a programmer's office. It was so apposite that I wrote it down and filed it:
"We have not succeeded in answering all of your problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things."
Great, David! This thread - and some private messages with Juanmaria - let me ask myself how many of us have a scientific background, because it seems clear that several of us have "something to do " with computers in a professional way (Anu is the first!). And, it seems rather "strange", because often - as Juanmaria reminded me - people feel that classical and scientific studies are in some sense very different things. Can I suggest the book R.Pirsig Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance ? Ciao Emanuela
I do not agree: you can use computers - and also screws and screwdrivers - just as tools, but in any case - behind them - there is a lot of scientific thinking; it is possible to use them even forgetting how they are made, but it is also possible to enjoj the way they work - and this is science. Ciao Emanuela
Speaking about computers. Have you noticed that the computer is ‘the perfect guilty’. I explain: Some eons ago, before computers rule the earth, people had to take their responsibilities and, sometimes, even apologize for a blunder. Now when the bank loses your money, when you expend hours in a file or when your doctor forgets your appointment. They all put the blame on the computer and even we tend to accept this explanation as a satisfactory one. If computers could complain ...
> Speaking about computers. Have you noticed that the computer is ‘the perfect guilty’. I explain: Some eons ago, before computers rule the earth, people had to take their responsibilities and, sometimes, even apologize for a blunder. Now when the bank loses your money, when you expend hours in a file or when your doctor forgets your appointment. They all put the blame on the computer and even we tend to accept this explanation as a satisfactory one. If computers could complain ...
Indeed. I believe the word you are searching for is 'scapegoat'. What you are saying above is similar to the old term 'the cheque is in the post' which means that it is out of our hands now so don't come blaming us if it doesn't arrive.
Some people may accept a 'computer-down' explanation as satisfactory but you can only fool some of the people some of the time...
Besides a bad workman blames his tools. Next time a bankclerk says they can't process your cheque beacuse of a computer malfunction, be clever and ask them what down-time should you expect? The blank expression on their faces should be priceless! Bonus marks if they try to bluff their way and give a meaningful answer!!!
I think there’s a lot of science behind a computer, from mathematics to physics at its highest levels. But some aspects of my activity, programming, might be considered more as an art than as a science. It’s like this schoolmate everyone had that could draw almost any cartoon or a teacher’s caricature without any painting studies. I’ve met with quite a few colleagues that, with only a minimal background, could solve any computing problem quickly and elegantly. I even have worked with people that could take pieces of other people code and, without understanding the way it worked, combine them to make a different program. I must admit that my programming abilities rely more on a natural gift than on hours of deep study.
'Scapegoat' that's the word I was looking for. You know that in Spanish we say 'Cabeza de Turco' 'Turkish head'. I don't have an explanation but I suspect some beheading behind this expression.
NOTE TO MY ISP: Please, cut my Internet access. I REALLY have a work to do and a couple of starving children to feed. Have mercy!
>'Scapegoat' that's the word I was looking for. You know that in Spanish we say 'Cabeza de Turco' 'Turkish head'. I don't have an explanation but I suspect some beheading behind this expression.
I believe it was a popular sport during the days of the Grand inquisition. ;^)
> NOTE TO MY ISP: Please, cut my Internet access. I REALLY have a work to do and a couple of starving children to feed. Have mercy!
Tell me about it! I've been on the list all day for the past two days and I have done nothing in the way of work. This noticeboard is just toooooo engrossing.
A-men! I seldom leave this board before spending an hour and a half, and it seems like five minutes! Also, thanks to all for allowing this computer-illiterate mom (the major reason we got a computer is so the kids could do better schoolwork) to participate without getting completely overwhelmed by jargon.
Speaking about spell checkers. I would like to suggest A_N_U to include his name on the spell checker dictionary. I can assure that his name is treated in a quite disgusting way.
Yes, please, David!! They get very disgusted when they want the computer and I'm on it, or when I pull rank and make them get off! If they are doing actual work, I stand here tapping my toe with impatience 'til they're done!
>>people whose universe is not ‘compucentric’. It is sort of refreshing.<<
Juanmaria (forget "Baby"!)-- Aughh--ghh!! The LAST thing I want to be is "refreshing"!!
(Still, though, if the shoe fits, I suppose I must wear it.) Ok,ok, it's not YOUR fault that the truth hurts! You're back on my good side, Juanie Baby. Ciao.
>>'Scapegoat' that's the word I was looking for.<<
... and referring to another thread, "Nouns as Verbs", I heard the word 'scapegoat' used as a verb on a BBC discussion recently. The speaker said, '...they feel a deep-seated need to scapegoat", and later, "...this leads to scapegoating".
It seems as if the practise of morphing (another noun-as-verb?) is becoming widespread, and worse, acceptable.
That's a shocker, I must say! "Goatscaping" would be a much better-sounding word, although not strictly in accordance with the rules of noun-verbing. Let's adopt it, eh?
"Scapegoating" has been used as a term for some time in Counselling circles - social sciences are always making up new terms. As a mathematician I always hated terms like "integration" and "differentiation" being bandied around. I've calmed down a little now.
So does Goatscaping rhyme with Netscaping?
Afterthought: I meant the new term to be the "ing" not the scapegoat bit
> That's a shocker, I must say! "Goatscaping" would be a much better-sounding word, although not strictly in accordance with the rules of noun-verbing. Let's adopt it, eh?
Scapegoat comes from Escape goat - the goat that was allow to escape into the wilderness with the sins of all attached to it. 'Goatscaping' certainly confuses this. We would have to classify it with all the other -scape words, too.
Whereas we used to landscape our gardens now we would also goatscape our mistakes or failures - oh, dear!
>>Scapegoat comes from Escape goat - the goat that was allow to escape into the wilderness with the sins of all attached to it.<< Rubrick, this is fascinating! Please tell more. Was this some church ritual?
>>Scapegoat comes from Escape goat - the goat that was allowed to escape into the wilderness with the sins of all attached to it.<<
Jackie - here are the Bible references you might like to read:
Leviticus 16:5-14 10 The goat chosen to be the scapegoat will be presented to the LORD alive. When it is sent away into the wilderness, it will make atonement for the people.
Leviticus 16:20-28 26 The man chosen to send the goat out into the wilderness as a scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe in water. Then he may return to the camp.
This is from Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable:
Scapegoat The Biajůs or aborigenes of Borneo observe a custom bearing a considerable resemblance to that of the scapegoat. They annually launch a small bark laden with all the sins and misfortunes of the nation, which, says Dr. Leyden, “they imagine will fall on the unhappy crew that first meets with it.” The scapegoat of the family. One made to bear the blame of the rest of the family; one always chidden and found fault with, let who may be in the wrong. The allusion is to a Jewish custom: Two goats being brought to the altar of the tabernacle on the Day of Atonement, the high priest cast lots; one was for the LORD, and the other for Azazel. The goat on which the first lot fell was sacrificed, the other was the scapegoat; and the high priest having, by confession, transferred his own sins and the sins of the people to it, the goat was taken to the wilderness and suffered to escape.
David--thank you!! I LOVE this Board! What an unexpected bonus I got! I do have a question, though, about that word 'chidden': how common is that? I very seldom hear anyone use any form of the word 'chide', but I probably would have used 'chided' here, simply because I was unfamiliar w/ chidden.
> David--thank you!! I LOVE this Board! What an unexpected bonus I got! I do have a question, though, about that word 'chidden': how common is that? I very seldom hear anyone use any form of the word 'chide', but I probably would have used 'chided' here, simply because I was unfamiliar w/ chidden.
Apologies, Jackie. I've been off-line but I see David was able to elaborate on the definition and history of 'scapegoat. I've never heard the word 'chidden'. I presume that it is quite archaic or regional dialect. I'll look it up sometime.
With the current Foot and Mouth ..er.. crisis (nearly said epidemic and couldn't remember the "correct" term and the inability to dispose of the piles of dead animals, we currently have "Cowscaping" and "Sheepscaping" in UK. We don't have that many goats to need scaping.
Several years ago there was an outbreak of mad cow in the UK. The EU forbade exports to the continent, and the herd was to be destroyed. A suggestion came in from a Cambodian (it may have been as a letter to the NYTimes) that the herd be shipped to Cambodia, instead, to be set loose to wander the mine fields.
Juanmaria and Rubrick... and Jackie for this : thanks to all for allowing this computer-illiterate mom to participate without getting completely overwhelmed by jargon
Yes, Jackie YES! I hasten to add that those who are Computer Gurus have been most generous in sharing their expertise and -- more importantly -- have sent instructions that are lucid and thereby easy to follow. Many thanks to all of you -- you know who you are! wow
Or as we say in Westernesse, "the check is in the mail", is one of the two greatest lies. I won't mention the other one, as it isn't fit for ladies, but most of us know what it is.
Or as we say in Westernesse, "the check is in the mail", is one of the two greatest lies. I won't mention the other one, as it isn't fit for ladies, but most of us know what it is.
In this context, the second sentence is an oxymoron. and !
2 greatest lies Well, ladies, don't say I didn't warn you. Now you know where the Greek myth about Pandora came from -- same place as the story in Genesis where the serpent goes after the woman, not the man, because she has to know for herself. (This section of Genesis is a description of human nature -- see Adam's response to God: "It's not my fault -- it's the fault of that woman you gave me!" implying that it's actually God's fault, thus foreshadowing the dodge of trying to stick responsibility on the victim, or the one offended against)
Me either, sweet Max. I can't even guess what to google. Frankly, I thought the other greatest lie was, "Sure, I'll stick by you after the baby comes".
In the spirit of uplifting, intellectual posts, and pedantic inquiry (plus felicidal inquisitiveness) I decided to contribute my mite to this thread. (If you look at the bottom right corner, you'll see him sitting there - his name is Dot. Please don't squash him. )
Am currently reading a book called As we know it: Coming to terms with an evolved mind by Marek Kohn. One of his main subjects for dicussion is, as in any discussion of the evolution of the human mind, the acquisition and development of language.
During this discussion he suggests that one of the oldest lies of all may well be: "He's behind you."
Apparently chimpanzees use a variant of this. When under threat from a larger chimp, or from a larger force, chimpanzees have been seen to mimic the 'warning' gesture (nervous tension, upright posture, staring in the direction of the predator that has just been spotted) - looking over the shoulders, or behind, the threatening chimpanzees, whose attention is then diverted to look behind them too. So this particular lie is almost certainly pre-linguistic!
This naturally segues into the consideration, as all true English-people know, that the oldest art from of all has to be the Panto.
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Can I offer to sell you a second computer, so that they can get on with their school work while you surf AWAD?
and the inability to dispose of the piles of dead animals, we currently have "Cowscaping" and "Sheepscaping" in UK. We don't have that many goats to need scaping.
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