Not as dominant as I had thought:
http://snipurl.com/bm76-mq42

Thanks, Max! This is very interesting, but I'm confused (not unusual, but..). I understood from the first part of the article that putonghua was the Mandarin word for "Mandarin Chinese," but then I read this:

...
Moreover, Yin said her dialect gives her a feeling of home, however, she said the use of dialects will not decrease the influence and popularity of putonghua. "It is complementary to Mandarin," she said.
...

This wikipedia snippet may help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putonghua

If I'm reading this correctly, the relationship between putonghua and Mandarin has a parallel in Northern India.
Hindi is an artifice, created from one major regional language/dialect, called KhariBoli, which was standardised and imposed as a national language. There are many variants of "Hindi", and even the standardised version is still sometimes called KhariBoli, after the (Delhi-based) variant that forms the foundation of standard Hindi. Perhaps there is a similiar relationship between putonghua and Mandrain?

More and more Chinese nowadays are able to communicate using Chinese Mandarin ... the standard spoken language also known as putonghua.

Agreed, it is confusing, ASp. But I think the confusion is resolved if one understands the words "putonghua" and "Madarin" to have exactly the same meaning.

It's probably the same difference as the difference between "Peking" and "Beijing".

In the passage below which creates the confusion, it is not putonghua which is "complementary", it is "the use of dialects" which is "complementary".

"Yin said her dialect gives her a feeling of home, however, she said the use of dialects will not decrease the influence and popularity of putonghua. "It is complementary to Mandarin," she said."

I understand Yin to mean that speaking her dialect at home and putonghua [Mandarin] at work is equivalent to wearing slippers at home and dress shoes at work. "Complementary" is not the best word to describe that thought, and that adds to the confusion.

Yin's dialect is not really "complementary" to Mandarin, but it is not injurious to Mandarin either.

I wish jheem were still around...

I wish jheem were still around...

So do I, ASp.

He would have stated with authority* what I merely surmised.

"The history of the Chinese Language dates back at least 6,000 years. Today, the official language of China is Mandarin Chinese or Putonghua meaning common speech. Historically, Putonghua was the dialect spoken by the majority ethnic group within China, the Han, who make up about 80% of the population. Indeed, the term most commonly used by the Chinese themselves to refer to their language is Hanyu meaning the "Han-language"."

http://www.cctv.com/program/RediscoveringChina/20030326/100838.shtml

* But I wish he were around for other reasons as well, as we all do. We miss him.

do you wonder why he isn't around?
rumor has it, it got tired of a person posting complaints and nonsense
yes, one person keeps complaining and complaining about how he is 'hampered and mistreated' (somehow--but somehow, he manages to make complaint after complaintunhampered in anyway.)
and this same person fill up bandwidth with post after post of garbage.. quoting himself, and patting himself on the back for being so clever.. (and even brags he is proud that many poster have been driven away.. (meanwhile one of his complaints major complaints is other are driving a way posters--not that there is any proof--in fact, evidence is to the contrary)

but YES, it is a shame and shameful that jheem has been driven away.

this reminds me of the case of the child who kills his parents, and then begs for the courts mercy because he is an orphan.

I wish jheem were still around...

Really? Maybe jheem would still be around if we had been thoughtful enough to stop and wish him a Happy Birthday.

Happy Birthday jheem, you are missed.

I wish jheem were still around...

So do I, ASp.


and who says Americans don't understand irony...

Damn, is Christmas over?

Someone please go ask jheem what great offence caused his withdrawal from this august board.

eta... yew'd bedder stop 'afore pfranz gets a hold of this... D'Oh... too late...

Taking the final p off the url helps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putonghua

Thanks for the link, bro.

87 per cent with college degrees are fluent...

That accords with the assertion by three post grad Chinese students my parents invited to lunch on Christmas day - "we speak Chinese" is how they described their language choice (using English desciptions). fwiw, they were also urbanites ("we don't see the countryside much!")

I agree it would be a shame if jheem had been "driven" away, Of Troy, but he hasn't.

"Rumor has it" a lot of things, but rumor is generally not worth repeating.

We all come and go for a lot of reasons, Of Troy. Some of us are more likely to stay when we are maligned than leave.

jheem has never been maligned by anyone. Perhaps he doesn't enjoy being in the midst of a feud. If that is the way jheem feels, we would both of us do better by jheem by ending the feud.

In any case, I have no reason to feud with you, Of Troy, or anyone else, and I won't. It's that simple.

if i may ask, who is jheem?

puto te esse stultum

Please pardon this digression, all –

puto te esse stultum

Is your signature directed toward all who read it, bluefruitbowl? It certainly gives that appearance. In the interest of civility, you might reconsider the wisdom of such an insult.

signature directed toward all

someone care to translate for us Latin challenged?

‘Puto te esse stultum’, directly translated, means: I think you to be a fool.

thanks, J.

Ok Bluefruitbowl, tell us - Just whom do you think a fool?
Plutarch? If so, why" If not, whom?

i did not mean to offend, that's just always been my signature... should i remove it?

puto te esse stultum

Personally, I don't know latin so I don't find it offensive for the words I'm looking at... and even the repetition seems to be less of an issue (for me, anyway) because of this...

...but think of it this way:

Try adding it at the end of every sentence/paragraph/time you speak in a conversation one day, and you'll get the effect I'm thinking alot of us do.

BTW - Welcome to our chaos, bluefruitbowl! Is the fruit blue or is the bowl blue?

I take it all y'all saw the article referenced in AWADmail?

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-adfg-polyglot19dec19,0,630421.story

Is the fruit blue or is the bowl blue?

It depends on your point of hue, musick.

BTW you are a scholar and a gentleman -- and a diplomat worthy of emulation, as well. :)

>do you wonder why he isn't around? ~ from Helen

A reminder might be in order, Plutarchi:

http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=138598

You drove him away. As you did a couple of other non-"Carpals."

You drove him away. As you did a couple of other non-"Carpals."

Well, at least I haven't driven you away, ASp. At least, I can take comfort in that.

A Usenet acronym I almost never feel inclined to use, but the Plutarchi (in all their legion avatars) are a very worthy candidate for it.

the Plutarchi (in all their legion avatars) are a very worthy candidate for it

Methinks, my friends, you do conspire
To forge my virtue in this fire.

insane. he must be insane.

first off, he thinks we are his friends..
coupled with his ever present conspiracy theories --

you know scenario, he pisses people off one by one, two by two, over and over again. and when they, one by one, and two by two begin to dislike him, and finally come to loath him, its all a conspiracy against him--he is (in what's left of his mind) total blameless. He is so sure of this; he repeated attempts to bully us into being his friend. when we don't fall over, fawning him for a single pleasant word, WE are wrong.

--Ever see the mock office memo telling every one "the beating will continue till the morale improves"? -- he is so sure bullying will work he promises us more of it! --and tries to pretend its a virtue.

but he has the capacity to surprise me yet..

i surprised he didn't claim jheem can post or not post.. (and it has nothing to do with him... ) but WE CARPAL--we somehow posses the power to drive unnamed legions of posters from AWAD (include our ever present attempts to drive him away) --of course there is no evidence of this, but hey, why let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory?

Testament to this is, we generally ignoring his public insanity couple with general idiocy, and profoundly juvenile behavior--BUT DO NOT publicly and privately pleading with jackie to ban him in all his guises.

i suppose milo is right, and we should be kind the infirm.. (can't we confine him to an infirmery instead?)

Thanks, helen. I always feel unclean after allowing myself to react to his baseness. Time to hose myself off and retreat into the safety of watching his venality without further comment.

retreat into the safety of watching his venality without further comment

Thanks, sjmaxq. I commend that advice to all who feel as you do.

I have been practising this approach myself for some weeks, although it may be unfair to condemn the approach based on my results with it.

he must be insane

I suppose you are right, Of Troy.

I can't call you a friend, although I would value you as a friend. But I won't call you my enemy because you say you are my enemy, because you are not.

We may not agree on everything, including your opinion of me personally, but I never take our disagreements personally. Of course, you are entitled to take them any way you wish. I can only speak for myself.

i wish is was venial. the loss of jheem is just the newest blow. strikes like that are mortal blows..

it seems plutarch won't be happy until he can fill AWAD with endless thread comprised of his own post--exclusively.
...see confession of an airhead, or more recently, the his post about the SF chronicaler about the word of the year.
14 total posts, 11 from one person.. classic demonstration of his replying to himself, again and again, to the effect of shutting out all other voices. except his voice, --he only want to converse with himself, via his sock puppets, and pretend to interact. REAL Interaction, (ie normal human behavior) he is incapable of.

and now he claims he to is retreating --See him as he limits himself to a dozen posts per thread instead of a 150 of a 160.. (and don't forget, FAWN, most of all he want everyone to fawn at his greatness)

this is Board works best when all voices are heard. he is doing his best to silence voices, to stiffle interaction; to dominate here. (can't you just hear him unctiously protest he is 'just a 'umble servent, ever so 'umble..' as he set about attempting to destroy the very thing he claims to value?)

AT this point, i am public asking for his rights and privledges here to be revoked. i will follow up this public request with a private one to jackie.

she might very well decide against me. but i invite others to join in, and second my request.

FAWN, most of all he wants everyone to fawn

Fawn? You would never "fawn" to anyone, Of Troy, and that's what most of us admire most about you.

I don't know, of troy, to punish Plutarch by petitioning Jackie to pull the plug on Mister Plutarch seems to me a bit churlish and unfair.
Rather, we should petition Jackie to censor ole jheem because of his snippish decision to punish us all by his absence.

But being of a kindly and compliant nature I will add my signature to the petition for ole Plutarch's banishment if his high crimes can be enumerated without innuendo.

I await your list.

we should petition Jackie to censor ole jheem because of his snippish decision to punish us all by his absence

I know this was said in jest, themilum, but I think it would have been best to have added a or :) just to erase any chance of misunderstanding.

May the petition be signed by anyone who wants to sign it, themilum. The sooner we can all get past this, the sooner we can all start posting about words again.

...if his high crimes can be enumerated without innuendo.

themilum - Since we know this is not possible, nor are the crimes *high, your inclusion (even if keeping a theme going) of the word "banishment" in the subject seems to be a little excessive, eh?

How about:

"Dude! Just turn the *faucet down to the point where the water doesn't freeze".

- or -

"Hey! Save some of the bad puns and wordplay for the rest of us fools.

- OR -

How about a bit of self regulation (my favorite kind).

a) Only one post per subject per day unless a conversation is going on directly/indirectly between two people.

Of course the "directly/indirectly" is a very large *crack to fall through, but we all have better judgements... sheesh!... it's only a guide to help us all maintain equalibrium with our own (and other's) psyche. When only a limited number of people comment on everything, and then comment on the comments... this becomes a public chat room... and that ain't what this is. The idea is to attempt to share regional information, personal knowledge and, of course, an occasional opinion. The only steeking rules we (really) have are limits on discussions of religious merit and political value... which, BTW, have been violated very much so recently, but nobody has said anything.... until now. I'm blaming that one on themilum, but I know he doesn't take things personally... besides, all that seasonal giving weakened our resolve... (ho-ho-ho)

Here's my real suggestion:

*Everyone take the sticks out of their....
*Horn players, take out your straigt, cup and Harmon mutes and use them...
*Electric bass player turn down a bit...
*Please, a little less distortion on the guitar...

... now... from the top... a one - an a two - an a tree...

... Take me out to the ballgame...

Wooden it be luverly?

I agree with Musick and Tsuwm. It's time for this year to be over with and with its demise there should be the demise of the bitterness and infighting that has become so commonplace over the last few months.

Sheesh, if you all keep this up when we talk about the late unpleasantness we will have to specify whether we mean late (as in dead and gone) or late (as in most recent.)

I direct this last to plutarch, milum, themilum, and whatever other names he or she is using: all jokes cease to be funny when they are repeated incessantly, and the joke and the jokester become tedious and boring. Whether you meant to or not (and in my personal viewpoint I think it is the former) you have made this a not-very-nice place and in the process you have driven away one of the more interesting and erudite new voices we have had on AWADtalk in the last two years. I have tried and tried to get a handle on why you have taken it upon yourself to post diatribes at people just because have posted more than you have, and I cannot begin to ascribe thereto a rational motive.

I've kept waiting for you to tire of the foolishness, and have dropped some subtle and not-so-subtle hints in your direction, asking you to examine yourself more critically. You have failed to respond in any positive way to hints, so now I will be less subtle: GET A LIFE! The library is that way.

The only steeking rules we (really) have are limits on discussions of religious merit and political value... which, BTW, have been violated very much so recently, but nobody has said anything.... until now.

Now Musick, if you have observed violations of the religeous and political apocrypha of this board, it serves us well for you to openly cite these violations by these right-wing Jesus-loving reactionaries so we can advise them to desist.

Or for that matter, you have an obligation to speak out against the assault upon our beloved English language by the vacuous mouthings of the politically correct.

Since we know this is not possible, nor are the crimes *high, your inclusion (even if keeping a theme going) of the word "banishment" in the subject seems to be a little excessive, eh?

Well maybe, Musick, maybe of troy didn't mean it when she said...

AT this point, i am public asking for his rights and privledges here to be revoked. i will follow up this public request with a private one to jackie.

she might very well decide against me. but i invite others to join in, and second my request

This board has many mansions but they are only worthwhile places to visit if they are open to all sexes and races and are not just dry and dusty mausoleums for the whims and pleasures of a small and smug self-considered elite.

Somehow I knew you wouldn't take it personally... but I didn't find those "violations" of dubious authenticity, and it's not like rules weren't meant to be broken... and I agree with the suggestion of such an "obligation" but not with the specifics of english being "beloved" (by any means). I married english for the money and all I got was love.

...and smug self-considered elite.

I wish, someday, someone would introduce me to *them.

So this is the thread that has been making me dread catching up in Misc. for so long that I had 189 new posts in this category. I finally decided to do it now, in the last hour and a half of the year (since the rest of my family is either away or down for the count) so that it wouldn't be looming over my awareness like some black cloud of doom when the new year starts.

You know, it's really a shame, to think of coming here with dread; for just ages and ages, I couldn't wait to come here and see what new great stuff had been posted. But I am so tired of hearing "they're so evil" and "he's so evil" (more or less); and I am even more tired of seeing it posted; and I am even MORE tired of learning that it has caused person after person to leave. But really, what's the point of staying, when so much of what's posted is gibes and bitterness? Both sides say, "I'd quit if the other side would"...but so far nobody has. And if nobody is willing to be first, well then...

Oddly enough, I feel worst for the newcomers who are adding to what's good here; that they haven't had and may not have the chance to see what a great place this can be. I know that several of the people who made it so much fun for me at first are gone for good. But enough of us are left, or could be (I hope) enticed back, to make it still be good...except as I said, for the gibes and bitterness. But if all of us old-timers go, maybe the newer folks can create their own atmosphere in a way that is good for them. I hope so.