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I'll expound but I ain't voting.

The hyphen is a transitional form between double words and single words, e.g., base ball, base-ball, baseball. In the case of hubbub there was no initial form hub bub

I vote for #1, mainly because I agree with Juan that there is too much hyphenventilating already!!!

And I think I should get weighted credit as I actually use the word, on occasion.

mm

Gimme a - !

>tsuwm doesn't like the double-b...

wherever did you get that notion? furthermoreover and in the second place, I emphatically agree with Faldo: there never was a hub-bub. and finally, hubbub looks more like an uproar than does hub-bub!

A universal hubbub wilde Of stunning sounds and voices all confus'd. Milton, Paradise Lost

-joe (the Expounder) friday

No hyphen. It's never had one, and shouldn't ever have one in the future either. And aside from that, hyphenating it slows it down too much.

So, lessee...what you're saying then, is that the introduction of a hyphen into any standing word structure for clarity's sake is taboo? That unless a hyphen is a part of the transition of two words forming into one word (as per baseball), then hypens are illegal? Well, let's see what one of the foremost coiners of newly-hypenated (

) words for the sake of gaining poetic imagery, a more original semantic nuance, Mr. Dylan Thomas, had to say...oh, and this just so happens to be from a "minor" work of his you may or may not know, Under Milkwood, the opening:

To begin at the beginning:
It is Spring, moonless night in the small town, starless and bible-black, the cobblestreets silent and the hunched, courters'-and-rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the
sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboat-bobbing sea.

So, unless these instances are on their way to becoming, let's say, courters'andrabbits' and fishingboatbobbingsea, I guess they're taboo as well?

And the only thing worse then complaining about a writer's strategically-chosen hyphen is for an editor to place a hypen in an author's word without any consultation...but we won't mention any names, tswum.

>a bit more from Dylan Thomas:

From where you are, you can hear, in Cockle Row in the spring, moonless night, Miss Price, dressmaker and sweetshop-keeper, dream of her lover, tall as the town clock tower, Samson-syrup-gold-maned, whacking thighed and piping hot, thunderbolt-bass'd and barnacle-breasted flailing up the cockles with his eyes like blowlamps and scooping low over her lonely loving hotwaterbottled body ...<

--Under Milkwood

hotwaterbottled??

and a bit more from Mr. Thomas:

P. C. Atilla Rees, ox-broad, barge-booted, stomping out of Handcuff House in a heavy beef-red huff, black-browed under his damp helmet...

--Under Milkwood

Notice how in the the first-quoted excerpt Thomas chooses to use a hyphen for bible-black, but not for sloeblack or crowblack?...insert or delete hyphens as you will...poet's perogative!

hotwaterbottled?

tsuwm, you need to get out more!

Juan, you don't like hubbub b's sandwiched together. OK. Taste is indisputable. But what about: bubble, Hubble, nobbin... other double b's? Is it just the hubbub double-b because of the proximity of the u's? Too bad there's not a word bubbub! It would be a palindrome both front and back and inside-out!

Probably because, to me, the center bs in hub-bub are two distinct bs, while, in the other examples, the bs are more like a rolling-together sound...(interestingly enough, "roll together" didn't quite capture the effect I was trying to communicate, and when I changed it to "rolling-together" it was a much more effective image...but without the hyphen, "rolling together" wouldn't have been as effective either!).

I think this is where Musick's Dictum comes in somewhere, isn't it?

so is it normally dubdub? or is it dub-dub?

or have I chopped the liv-er, or merely stated the obvious?

Juan says: So, lessee...what you're saying then, is that the introduction of a hyphen into any standing word structure for clarity's sake is taboo?

Beautiful example, Juan!

Of the fallacy of hasty generalization.

Personally, I like hyphens. But not in hubbub, or with "ly" words (a discussion we've had before and I know ICLIU but I don't feel like doing it just now)

me and john dos passos vote for the hyphen in dub-dub but not in hubbub. we think the hyphen serves as a necessary syntaxal pause in dub-pause-dub. otherwise hyphenate only for the mental image of a thing that has been altered by joining. but in general join words together like germans. it'll look poetic and make your sentences read smoothly. i am writing in the lower case not because of any ee cummings literary air but because mister petee is sitting on the shift key and won't move. mister petee is a cat.

Juan says: So, lessee...what you're saying then, is that the introduction of a hyphen into any standing word structure for clarity's sake is taboo?

Beautiful example, Faladage!

Of quoting out of context.

hubbub
No question about it.

Longer strings, of *real, discrete words, definitely should be hyphenated, as Juan pointed out.

Of quoting out of context.

It's the beginning the middle and ... heck, it is the whole context of that response (one that presumes a stinking-rule is being *invented).

I'm with tsuwm on the "hotwaterbottled" ommission.

(one that presumes a stinking-rule is being *invented).

Just to be clear is "we dun need no steenkin' rules" (choose one):

1) Musick's Dictum

2) Musick's Maxim

3) Musick's Mantra

In retrospect, and in deference to my love for alliteration, I'm changing my vote to 3...Musick's Mantra.

But I suppose the Mantra Maestro should just tell us himself.

Hubbub - said aloud it sounds like a babble.
Hub-bub said aloud, with the hyphen being a kind of glottal stop, just doesn't make it
I vote hubbub.

Let me climb on the hyphen-nyeting bandwagon too. If you try to put a hyphen into hubbub all it does is disrupt the hubbub. Leave it out, dash it all! No, better yet, _don't_ dash at all.

rub-a-dub-dub three men in a tub

rub a dub dub

rubadubdub

I think the choice is obvious.

I like the hubbub just as it is. Let Juan hyphenate his if he wants. "Rules? We doan need no steenkin rules!"

BTW, I have absolutely no problem with "hubba, hubba, hubba!"

I'm with tsuwm on the "hotwaterbottled" ommission

What "ommission"? That's the point...you can't be for or against this...this is Dylan Thomas' style, the way he intended this word he created to be to best capture the image he desires...it is because he, the author, decreed it is...there is no right or wrong...it just is...his choice, his work of art, his poetic license!

...and I was merely bemused by his choice in this nonce-word, after all those other hyphens. I guess he just ran out--or maybe he was a hyphenoclast.

- (to-be-or-not-to-be) ron obvious

(the final word?)

hy-phen

Hub-bub, schmub-bub. Hubbub, of-course.

rub a dub dub

rub a dub-dub?

Requiring a poet to get a license?...

...or should I say...

..."choiring to the preacher"?

This is wa-ay *too much fun

rub a dub-dub?
?!? Better watch it, you'll get your hand slapped!

=========================================================

Revealing my ignorance again--
tall as the town clock tower, Samson-syrup-gold-maned, whacking thighed and piping hot, thunderbolt-bass'd and barnacle-breasted flailing up the cockles with his eyes like blowlamps and scooping low over her lonely loving hotwaterbottled body ...<
You have got to be kidding me. I'm sorry, I know he's famous and revered and all--I've even read things of his that I like--but did this book by any chance start with, "It was a dark and stormy night..."? Surely he wasn't serious, but was writing this OTT to demonstrate ... something?

Under Milkwood

Jackie, Under Milkwood, a verse-play, was written by Dylan Thomas as "a play for voices," and it's just beautiful in performance...both poignant and haunting...like a luscious symphony of language and character...a theatrical experience not to be missed. Here's a site with some background and Thomas links, and the first part of the text so you can see how it flows in context:

http://oedipa.tripod.com/thomas.html

Well, I said I was showing my ignorance. Okay, it's "a play for voices"--thank you. I can't help but have a sneaking suspicion that I would be bored to the screaming point, but. Maybe if I were in the right frame of mind... I reckon the actors would have to have mellifluous voices?

I vote for hubbub.

'Fraid I need an explanation of your subject, please, Sweetie. Send Private if you like.

bored to the screaming point ... the right frame of mind

If you're looking for plot/character development forget it. Imagine you're going to a music concert. You wouldn't leave a concert saying things like, "I really like the way the composer resolved that conflict between the oboes and the violas," or "The french horns faced some very serious issues and, I think, came out much the better for it."

You wouldn't leave a concert saying things like, "I really like the way the composer resolved that conflict between the oboes and the violas,"
Akshurly, I might!

Not the other one, though. Yes, I definitely would have to be in the right frame of mind; I have never heard of this art form before. But I imagine that with the right "mood" lighting, and golden-voiced performers, it could be quite captivating.

A friend sent me a review of Under Milkwood: "What's so funny about a town full of sociopaths? Dylan Thomas knew the answer: that life is better lived with a dark passion than a squeaky-clean complaisance; that with all their flaws, the denizens of Llareggub are divine creations, deserving of forgiveness and acceptance, laughter and love. Thomas' characters make us laugh, even as they engage in a myriad of sins more deadly than those normally committed by those of us in the outside world. Why do we laugh? Because, in spite of their sins, these outlandish characters are not so very different from you and me." (I also got clued in as to the original eman.)

This reminded me of a bit I heard on TV yesterday: author Adam Davies was talking about his book, "The Frog King". (I see that Amazon lists it as "The Frog King: A Love Story".) He was saying that in this book, he wanted to explore whether someone who has many flaws and isn't necessarily likeable could in the end be found to be worthy of love (note--this is a severe shortening of all that he had to say). He said he discovered his favorite moment in all of literature when he was in the 9th grade (approx. age 14) and it is still his favorite: when Odysseus gets back home and no one knows him after so long a time, until his childhood nurse recognizes him by an old scar on his leg. Mr. Davies said that, "We are known by the scars life gives us", and I thought that was kind of profound.

It sounds like both this play and this book more or less celebrate the un-"pretty" (figurative sense, not literal), not-very-nice people.

Llagerrub. I love it.

All seriousness aside, is this play ever produced as a play? I can only ever remember hearing about or seeing "readings". The actors may be dressed up in costumes, but they always seem to be reading the script, rather than acting the play.

Yes, it's produced as a stage production all the time....it's an enchanting experience. And it's become something of a standard for university drama departments to produce, since it is such good voice-training.

>Jackie said: the actors must have to have mellifluous voices<

All good actors should have rich voices, the voice is the actor's instrument, their tool...traditionally, stage actors were trained to fill 'the room' with the resonance and projection of their voices, "to hit the back wall" as it was called in theatrical circles. I view the day that microphones were introduced to the Broadway stage as a dark, blasphemous day for the art of the theatre, and I still cringe whenever I see a miked stage production...it dilutes, terribly, the intimacy of live theatrical performance. Good actors have good voices.

And, remember, Dylan Thomas was Welsh. And the Welsh tradition of oratory is almost sacred to them. The Welsh view the majesty of a rich human voice, through oratory or singing, with a respect and reverence like no other...except perhaps the Irish. That's why Thomas's poetry is some of the most oratorical verse ever written, which I celebrate since I've always viewed poetry as an oratorical, or even dramatic, artform. (see Walt Whitman

)

another Under Milkwood note:

Faldage, it is usually produced with a minimalist set, as per the author's directions, in much the same manner as Edgar Lee Master's Spoon River Anthology, or Thornton Wilder's Our Town. And like those other productions, when done well, you come away with a heightened consiousness for the beauty and appreciation of life, our everyday life...it elevates simplicity to a transcendence we tend to overlook while immersed in the busy-ness of daily living.

Chacun � son go�t, mais pour moi - hubbub.

one more note:

I meant to mention that Under Milkwood is also frequently presented in the script-in-hand format called "reader's theatre" (which is what you probably saw, Faldage), sometimes with just podiums, sometimes with open staging. But fully rehearsed and directed, not a cold reading.

At some point you earn your poet's license. Dylan Thomas and, oh my, James Joyce are good examples. Until that time it's in the common interest if we lesser mortals observe the conventions, such as they are.

I strongly disagree. Creative writers, as artists, have every right to experiement with their work in language and form as they see fit, no matter at what level of stature or accomplishment they are perceived to be, just as every painter has the artistic freedom to experiment with the stroke of the brush. Whether it works or not is up to the audience and the critics. Writers like Dylan Thomas, Eugene Ionesco, e.e. cummings, Ray Bradbury, William Faulkner (he of the 5 page sentences) did not suddenly leap to a new style in the mid-course of their careers just because they'd achieved some stature, that was always their style. In fact, they got noticed because they dared to be different. The notion that someone should somehow deem to sanction literary artists the 'right' to experimentation at some point in their careers is just absurd.

Very late in-to this thread. Well, all of them ac-tu-ally. I have-n't been here in weeks. Any-way, where in the blue blazes did any-one get the no-tion that you could leg-i-ti-mate-ly in-tro-duce a hy-phen into a word which has nev-er been graced by one in the past? I de-tect the fell hand of Whit-man O'-Neill here, I do.

- Pfranz

I think you just legitimately did so, CK! No, he's kind of illegitimate...(not really, but I just had to follow up that line!)

No, he's kind of illegitimate...

Which kind?

Very late in-to this thread. Well, all of them ac-tu-ally. I have-n't been here in weeks. Any-way, where in the blue blazes did any-one get the no-tion that you could leg-i-ti-mate-ly in-tro-duce a hy-phen into a word which has nev-er been graced by one in the past? I de-tect the fell hand of Whit-man O'-Neill here, I do.

My hand has been called a lot of things before, Cap, but never "fell".

And I've never been to the Blue Blazes, is it nice there?

EDIT: Dunno why I didn't do this before...but hub-bub, with the hyphen, gets 5,720 hits on Google, so it ain't just me an' TEd, folks!

it ain't just me an' TEd, folks!

Hubbub, without the hyphen, gets 61,600, so it might as well be just you and TEd.

It just occurred to me that we need a name for this new "science" of looking things up on Google and comparing numbers of hits for some kind of democratic opinion of things. I propose Googology.

It just occurred to me that we need a name for this new "science" of looking things up on Google and comparing numbers of hits for some kind of democratic opinion of things.

It's the new comparative linguistic science of tsuwmology, and the fact that it's now wrecking havoc with standardized forms is obviously a mute point.....so what's all the hub-bub about?

Hubbub, without the hyphen, gets 61,600, so it might as well be just you and TEd.

Oh, so 5,720 people don't count, are deemed as non-existent, because they're different, huh?...fascist!

Googology seems to be already taken and relates to the number googol. (YCLIU)

Googlology might could be a better term. You might wanna see what these guys have to say about it.

http://www.googlology.info/2003/01/15.html

deemed as non-existent

Betcha if you google hard enough, you'll might could find yourself a support group.

It's called democrat, Juan

It's called democrat, Juan

Oh, so the majority is always "right" or "good" in a Democracy? See Aristotle!

Mebbe the majority rules, but. However, invalidating whole groups of people just because they're in the minority is at least aristocracy, if not downright fascistic.

60,000 use hubbub and close to 6,000 use hub-bub...those are the clear facts, the reality...deal with it.

Oh, OK, Juan. You're not invalid. Just wrong.

OK, I guess what we do is applied Googlology, a very specific sub-field of Googlology where we use Google's numerical results to prove a point. I don't really like the extra l, though. Don't we have a long history in the English language of doing away with letters we don't like the sound of? And I don't think we can name it after tsuwm because he's wasn't the first to use Google hits as an argument. Was he?

Problem's not with leaving out the "extra" l; it's that pesky o between it and the g. Makes it look like it's about googol and not Google�.

How about Googlemetrics?

Oh, okay, Faldo...form you I'll take a half-capitulation as a victory (Debate 101). Glad you came around to see it my way!

And, besides, "Tomorrow Belongs To Me!"

>And I don't think we can name it after tsuwm

juan was just alluding to this weeks wwftd theme wherein I've been using googlemetrics to prove my point that certain expressions are much maligned. I see now that I could have included hubbub's recherche alternative.

And could we call the amount of hits the word form gets it's Googleocity? (Googolocity? Googlocity? None of the three look right.

) i.e.: What's the Googleocity of hub-bub?

How about the Googular rank of hub-bub?

the Googular rank

Sure that's not Googlear?

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

I thought you'd like that.

I was editing a piece by a college professor. English professor, at that. He used the term causus belli [sic]. I was curious to see if this was a common mistake, so I googled it.

causus belli - 968 hits.
casus belli - 27,600 hits.

It seems to be a conflation of casus belli and causa belli, both of which are correct, each in its own way.

Causa belli gets only 725 on the Googlometer, but don't tell Juan.

but don't tell Juan

I HEARD THAT!

Sure that's not Googlear?

Ooph!...that's really going for the juglear!

Well, although I think we've worked out that the likelihood of "google" the verb being included in the OED any time soon is pretty remote, it all kind of begs the question about the continued usage of the word with or without OED sanction. As if the language ever hung around waiting for it.

Nearly everyone I know who uses the web talks about "googling" things, even when they're using Yahoo! or one of the other search engines. Even 'er indoors. The fact is, however, that the googlification of the web is not a science and no one (apart from a few hardened sandal-and-beard wearing nerds at Stanford, of course) is trying to turn what is basically just a tool, albeit a very useful one, into a science. So Googlology is a study without students or professors or much of a literature, and is therefore redundant.

Don't you like "googlification" as a noun? I do!

- Pfranz

I love this!! What's its provenance? Local? Zild?

Don't you like "googlification" as a noun?
Ok, but. Is it pronounced goog-lification, or, more true to the sound of the name, google-ification? If it's the latter, yes, I love it.

Google-ification!
Google-ification!
It can make a wonderful
Fantasy vacation!

(No applause please, just throw money!)

In reply to:
60,000 use hubbub and close to 6,000 use hub-bub...those are the clear facts, the reality...

Actually no. Perhaps those using hub-bub (or indeed hubbub) are more prolific writers, thus artificially boosting their score. Hits = websites not people.

Bingley

Actually no. Perhaps those using hub-bub (or indeed hubbub) are more prolific writers, thus artificially boosting their score. Hits = websites not people.

I think you're right, Bingley. Those befuddled hubbubbers are definitely the more prolific writers...so that settles it then. Thanks!

Cross-threading with Jackie, if we name this new democratic process after tsuwm, then we can atsuwm the results are correct and to accept the lower number of hits would be to make a false atsuwmption. Anything could be decided this way, even elections, so instead of an expensively elected prime minister we could have the atsuwmption of Tony Blair.

Mmmm. Astsuwming you're right, then we should also use an s before the t in astsuwm. That's OK. Its estsewntial to get it right.

Dear AnnaStrophic, the phrase comes from a long gone but deservedly popular British TV programme called The Minder. George Cole portrayed Arthur Daley, a second-hand car dealer cum general minor rogue with a wife who was never shown. He always referred to her as " 'er indoors".

Dennis Waterman (who had previously played 2IC to John Thaw in The Sweeney) played the part of the eponymous minder (ie: bodyguard) to George Cole. It would be oversimplifying things to consider the programme as just another comedy. George Cole, an excellent actor - I first remember him in 'A life of Bliss' on the radio - became well known when he took the part of Flash Harry, the spiv in the St Trinian films. He is that type of character actor who always gives good value for money and is capable of holding a play or show together and lifting everyone elses performance. Although he has usually played in comedy he is capable of putting a lot of depth into his work and really developing a character. I have seen him play villains and romantic leads with total assurance. His development of Arthur Daley as a likeable but selfish coward from whom you were always hoping for better things, but never getting them, was masterly.

if we name this new democratic process after tsuwm

I propose naming the unit of measure the tsuwm. It would be equal to 1000 hits. Thus hubbub would score 61.6 tsuwms and hub-bub 5.72 tsuwms.

That's great, now we just need to get it into the SI system of units. Because the SI system requires abbreviations to be with a capital letter where the unit is named for a person, we would have to have 5.72Ts even though tsuwm starts with a lower case letter. But I suspect in practice we would normally wish to use the name in full.

into the SI system of units.

tsuwm itself rates 290 mTs.

Of particular interest: http://www.tmcamp.org/Documents/fasting.htm

...Dennis Waterman (who had previously played 2IC to John Thaw in The Sweeney) played the part of the eponymous minder (ie: bodyguard) to George Cole. It would be oversimplifying things to consider the programme as just another comedy. George Cole, an excellent actor - I first remember him in 'A life of Bliss' on the radio - became well known when he took the part of Flash Harry, the spiv in the St Trinian films.

It's, like, you're talking about life on another planet...

tsuwm is a real word!?

Faldage scores 1.4Ts (1,490).

And, ommigod, look!...the 8th hit!:

>FALDAGE

In old English law, faldage was the privilege of setting up, and moving about, folds for sheep, in any fields within manors, in order to manure them. The prviledge was often reserved to himself by the lord of the manor.<

http://probertencyclopaedia.com/A6.HTM

Sorry, Faldo...but I didn't make this up!

Sheep, Pfranz!!?

...the 8th hit...

YARTerrific. I swear you were there, too... with us *sheep.

YARTerrific Like it!...I'll take that as a *compliment!

And is it true that a moose who can hold a melody makes moosick?

tsuwm is a real word!?

I demand derivation!!

Sorry, Faldo...but I didn't make this up!

Just wake up, Juan?

Its like, you're talking about life on another planet...

No, I'm here with some others. *You're someplace else..

Where's Pfranz Capfka when you 'needham'.

Is this like "Waiting for Godot"???

I first heard " 'er indoors" from a London-born neighbour when I were a rugrat, long before George and Denis used it. Loved it, even then. "The Minder" scriptwriters just picked it up. It appears to be quite a common East End term.

- Pfranz

And what's your take on faldage being an olde English word that relates to sheep, Pfranz?

hub-bub, with the hyphen, gets 5,720 hits on Google

O my darlin'....that don't mean it's right! If you Google "Artic" you get 327,000 hits (and a little note saying, "Did you mean ARCTIC?"!) Google the kerrect spelling, Arctic, and you get 3,120,000 hits.

Proportions pretty close to what you get for hub-bub and hubbub, doncha think? but in each case, the former is WRONG, dagnabbit!

Which is my verbose way of saying: I vote for Number One!

And what's your take on faldage being an olde English word that relates to sheep, Pfranz?

Oh, I don't know, Juan, I think I'll take damned near any crap from a man who has flying squirrels ensconced in his rafters ... sheep are easy meat by comparison!

Quite apart from which, I already knew where faldage came from, even if I'm not sure why Faldage took the word on as his sobriquet!

- Pfranz

http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=12358

A friend of Wordwind's daughter has told me that I look like a Faldage.

Whatever *that means.