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Posted By: olly ize or ise - 06/01/11 01:47 AM
Heres one that may have reared its head here before.

Is it Pearlize or Pearlise?

I have tried different dictionaries and online look ups and have come to the conclusion that... it doesn't really matter. I just wanted to get to the root of my pedancy. Here in Enzed we use british english. Any thoughts on the matter would be most welcome.
Posted By: LukeJavan8 Re: ize or ise - 06/01/11 02:02 AM
One Look has only the "z".
Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: ize or ise - 06/01/11 02:05 AM
I think that generally it's "ise" in England, and "ize" in the US.
Posted By: olly Re: ize or ise - 06/01/11 03:32 AM
My understanding too. It may also have something to do with the word origins. English borrows a lot from french where I belive the 'ise' is more dominant?
Posted By: Faldage Re: ize or ise - 06/01/11 10:01 AM
My understanding is that it was originally -ize but the Brits, in their excessive love of the French, changed over to the French -ise.
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: ize or ise - 06/01/11 12:32 PM
british english

Ah, yes, well. The OED (all editions) lists entries with -ize suffix. There is an entry for -ise, but it is merely glossed as a variant of -ize. If one is to apply the etymological fallacy pedantically, one ought to observe that the French did not invent the suffix (i.e., it isn't from Latin). It is Greek in origin, where a zeta is used.
Posted By: goofy Re: ize or ise - 06/01/11 02:54 PM
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
If one is to apply the etymological fallacy pedantically


This is what the OED does, it seems to me. They note that some prefer the spelling -ise for words borrowed from French, and -ize for words borrowed from Greek. But then they say
Quote:
But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is in its origin the Greek -ιζειν, Latin -izāre; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic.

Posted By: olly Re: ize or ise - 06/01/11 09:07 PM
I know 'shift happens' but I can't seem to get away from the fact that the truth is out there and should to some degree be adhered to.
So in my opinion the Ize have it.
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: ize or ise - 06/02/11 12:03 AM
he pronunciation is also with z

Indications are that the pronunciation of zeta in Classical greek was not the same as the pronunciation of z in English: Gk /dz/ PDE /z/.
Posted By: Candy Re: ize or ise - 06/02/11 11:58 AM
Interesting topic..I have noticed that the 's' is often exchanged with a 'z' in the word paradise!

This seems mostly in songs for some reason.
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: ize or ise - 06/02/11 12:30 PM
I have noticed that the 's' is often exchanged with a 'z' in the word paradise!

The word paradise does not contain the suffix -ise. It is ultimately from and Old Iranian word pari- 'around' (cf. Greek περι- (peri-) + daiz- 'to heap up, build' (cf. English dough, Latin fingō 'to touch, handle; form, shape') meaning enclosure and later walled park or garden.
Posted By: Jackie Re: ize or ise - 06/03/11 02:07 AM
daiz- 'to heap up, build' --> dais, surely?
Posted By: Faldage Re: ize or ise - 06/03/11 10:55 AM
Originally Posted By: Candy
Interesting topic..I have noticed that the 's' is often exchanged with a 'z' in the word paradise!

This seems mostly in songs for some reason.


lolz
Posted By: Faldage Re: ize or ise - 06/03/11 10:57 AM
Originally Posted By: Jackie
daiz- 'to heap up, build' --> dais, surely?


According to AHD4 dais is from Latin discus and don't call yourself Shirley.
Posted By: zmjezhd Re: ize or ise - 06/03/11 11:50 AM
dais, surely?

Why? As Faldo has pointed out, the two words are not related. The Indo-European root for the Persian root daiz- is *dheigh-, and in Latin that initial dh corresponds to an f (cf. Latin fumus 'smoke', Greek θυμος (thumos) 'mind, soul', Sanskrit dhuma 'smoke' < PIE *dheu-m-).
Posted By: Jackie Re: ize or ise - 06/04/11 02:32 AM
Thank you both.
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