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Hardly a word post - but I found it interesting....
The U.S.S. Constitution (Old Ironsides) as a combat vessel carried 48,600 gallons of fresh water for her crew of 475 officers and men. This was sufficient to last six months of sustained operations at sea. She carried no evaporators (i.e. fresh water distillers).
However, let it be noted that according to her log, "On July 27, 1798, the U.S.S. Constitution sailed from Boston with a full complement of 475 officers and men, 48,600 gallons of fresh water, 7,400 cannon shot, 11,600 pounds of black powder and 79,400 gallons of rum."
Her mission: "To destroy and harass English shipping". Making Jamaica on 6 October, she took on 826 pounds of flour and 68,300 gallons of rum.
Then she headed for the Azores, arriving there 12 November. She provisioned with 550 pounds of beef and 64,300 gallons of Portuguese wine.
On 18 November, she set sail for England. In the ensuing days she defeated five British men-of-war and captured and scuttled 12 English merchantmen, salvaging only the rum aboard each.
By 26 January, her powder and shot were exhausted. Nevertheless, although unarmed she made a night raid up the Firth of Clyde in Scotland. Her landing party captured a whisky distillery and transferred 40,000 gallons of single malt Scotch aboard by dawn. Then she headed home.
The U.S.S. Constitution arrived in Boston on 20 February, 1799, with no cannon shot, no food, no powder, no rum, no wine, no whisky and 38,600 gallons of stagnant water.
GO NAVY!
stales
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Holy cow, talk about coincidence--just today I happened to have the opportunity to talk with a man who retired from the Naval Ordnance plant here in 1990, and one of the things he told me was that he had helped re-fit the cannon barrel of Old Ironsides so it could be set off for show.
Your post made me think of this song verse:
What do you do with a drunken sailor,
What do you do with a drunken sailor,
What do you do with a drunken sailor,
Ear-lie in the mor-nin'.
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U.S. Naval secret declassified. USS Constitution was
first naval vessel with auxiliary steam engine burning
alcohol.
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Found an official USN website for the USS Constitution and, whilst surfing, found reference to the ship's "orlop deck". Not a word I'd heard before (the stales's being well know for their land-lubbing tendencies) so LIU. Here's the definition.
"The Orlop Deck and Hold were used for storing the necessities of a long voyage - food, fresh water, spare sails, ammunition, clothing, personal effects and alcohol - the latter with a permanent Marine guard! The ship's supply of gunpowder was kept in fore and aft magazines, lined with copper to prevent stray sparks from igniting it. The "powder monkeys " - boy sailors who would pass the charges up through hatches in the ceiling - worked in near darkness, their only light coming from candle lanterns behind thick glass bull's eyes. On this deck too was the Carpenter's walk, a narrow passage to give the ship's carpenter access to any damage below the waterline."
So there you go!
stales
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Hi stales,
If the replenishment on October 6 corresponds to the quantity consumed since departure, this works out at slightly more than two gallons of rum per person and day. You certainly know the naval meaning of the word "yarn".
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Nautical terms are so often attractive and mellifluous, and, if not so tonally pleasing, interesting because of the mental associations.
That 'drunken sailor' Jackie mentions, for instance, I once heard was actually a term for either a wet or some kind of unattached sail--I've forgotten the particulars.
'Futtock shroud' is my favorite term, next followed by 'bilge blood.'
Now, Stales. I must confess. I am horribly gullible. The story you wrote about the Constitution and the taking on of all that alcohol. Was it a joke or the truth? Either way, it's a great story.
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yeah, stales. What's yer source?
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Pooh-Bah
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More seriously, perhaps, the orlop deck was usually where the naval surgeon and his "mates" worked during battles on frigates and line of battle ships during the Napoleonic wars. It was convenient to the gundeck (where most of the casualties would occur), and was relatively protected, i.e. there were two wooden walls between the orlop and the incoming cannon shot.
I have never understood, and it has never been satisfactorily explained to me, why naval ships didn't have armour plating (iron sheeting) on the outside of the hull along the line of the gundeck. It would have saved hundreds, if not thousands, of sailors from maiming or death. And it wouldn't have been so heavy as to make the ship unmanageable (i.e. top heavy) in bad weather.
- Pfranz
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You're questioning my source!!![indignant toss of the head]
Why - it was none other than that ever reliable, always factual source - My email Inbox!!
Standby shipmates - I've asked the USN to verify....
stales
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orlop
n.
5ME ouerlop < Du overloop < over, over + loopen, to run (see LEAP): so called because it covers the hold6 [Now Rare] the lowest deck of a ship with four or more decks
As for use of steel plates - the manufacture of steel plates didn't begin until about fifty years later. Little coal was available, little iron ore. I tried hard to find dates, had no luck.
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"Fifteen men on a dead man’s chest Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum Drink and the devil be done for the rest Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!"  --Robert Louis Stevenson, 1881
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>quantities of drink<
But, truth be told, prior to the 20th Century alcoholic beverages were viewed from a much different perspective, as a form of nourishment. And in many places distilled spirits were considered safer to drink than the available water supply. Even the Mayflower had enormous amounts of alcoholic beverages on its manifest, far more beer and wine than water, and these were Puritans who frowned on drunkeness. Indeed, beer was a staple beverage of the Pilgrims, even the children drank it.
>A ship's manifest of 1630 shows that the Puritans (of all people) had thoughtfully provisioned themselves with 10,000 gallons of beer, 120 hogsheads of brewing malt, and a dozen gallons of distilled spirits. No wonder construction of a stockade was generally the first order of business. "In the late seventeenth century the Rev. Increase Mather [father of Cotton, the man who would preside over the 1692 Salem witch hysteria] had taught that drink was 'a good creature of God' and that a man should partake of God's gift without wasting or abusing it. His only admonition was that a man must not 'drink a Cup of Wine more than is good for him'. ... At that time inebriation was not associated with violence or crime; only rowdy, belligerent inebriation in public places was frowned upon." (1)
"Thou dost cause grass to grow for the cattle and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man." 104th Psalm<
I remember the first time I toured the Mayflower replica in Plymouth, Massachusetts, and the guide told us in the hold of all the kegs of beer brought along...I was incredulous.
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Pooh-Bah
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As for use of steel plates - the manufacture of steel plates didn't begin until about fifty years later. Little coal was available, little iron ore. I tried hard to find dates, had no luck.
Not true, Bill. Boilers were being manufactured as early as 1780. To do that they had to manufacture iron or steel plates. They knew how to do it. They had the technology. They chose not to use it. Or they lacked the imagination to.
- Pfranz
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Being "old navy" myself (30 years worth), I couldn't pass up this string without adding some comment.
Regarding USS Constitution: as recently as 1980, and possibly yet, the Commanding Officer was an active duty U.S. naval officer. Command was a sinecure obtained through some political connection. I knew an officer who was assigned to the position whose primary duties were to strut around the ship wearing the uniform of an officer of that era.
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JohnHawaii Not only the CO, but the whole ship's company, including its Marines detachment, are serving military personnel. Interesting to note that "the United States Marine Corps USS Constitution Detachment is the oldest detachment in the Corps". Ship's website: http://www.ussconstitution.navy.milstales
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"old navy"
Maybe you can answer me a question. When I went a-visiting back in the late '60s I was told it was a commissioned ship, but I looked in vain for a commission pennant. Why does (did) it not fly one?
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The alcohol in beer, wine or liquor kept bacteria or other microorganisms from growing there, so it was safer than the water.
What is the name of the sailing vessel that the the Coast Guard uses for training its recruits? There was an article in Smithsonian awhile back about it but I forget the name. It was pretty cool -- the recruits learned basic seamanship and at the same time soaked up some nautical heritage. I've often wondered if the other branches of the service have similar techniques of steeping their recruits in the history of their particular branch.
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Pooh-Bah
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I've haven't heard that the USAF has its recruits chancing their arms in Wright Flyers ... Speaking of which, it is the 100th anniversary of the world's first powered flight by Richard Pearse, of Waitohi, Canterbury, New Zealand this week. I hoisted a few in his honour last night. If you doubt it, read this: http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/pearse1.html- Pfranz
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the world's first powered flight by Richard Pearse, of Waitohi, Canterbury, New ZealandHummph!® http://snurl.com/1234
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"I looked in vain for a commission pennant..."
Might have been difficult to see at the very top of the mast. The ship's history indicates a number of commissionings and decommissionings, but I would expect her to be flying the pennant in her current commissioned status.
I have a commissioning pennant from a destroyer my father commanded and put out of commission, and it's really not very large.
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Hummph!®
Doesn't count, and you know it! Stringfellow's effort had strings attached, if you know what I mean.
Actually, Richard Pearse was a real clever sod, and the flying thingy was actually just a sideline. He built a bicycle which was years ahead of its time, he found a way of making traction engines much more efficient and came up with a whole host of other inventions.
But for all that he had absolutely no commercial nous (witness the fact that he flew his plane without publicity. But there is no doubt at all that he beat the Wright brothers to it by about nine months and possibly nearly 18 months.
He never took out a single patent. Idiot!
- Pfranz
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veteran
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The Coast Guard sailing ship is the Eagle
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Pooh-Bah
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Getting back to the booze, does anyone know the strength of these alcoholic drinks that sailors apparently imbibed with such reckless abandon? I have heard of something called 'small beer', which has become part of a well known phrase or saying for instance. That suggests to me that there is a possibility that the drinks were of lower strength than we are used to today.
Of course, since the water was so bad they may have been boiling off the alcohol by using it for cooking. No, seriously.
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Good point, dxb. From what I understand, originally beer only contained about 4% alcohol, thus even children could drink it as nourishment without any serious inebriate effects. And it wasn't until the latter part of the 19th century that innkeepers began to ferment beer to a higher potency (proof) for recreational imbibing.
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Why 'proof' for alcoholic content? What does it prove other than about how drunk you'll get if you drink more ounces of a higher proof alcohol than a lower one?
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Thanks to the U of Wyoming for the following:
" Proof refers to the percentage of ethyl alcohol by volume in any particular type of alcoholic beverage. Proof corresponds to twice the percentage rate. For example, a bottle of whiskey may be 80 proof or 40% alcohol by volume."
So now ya know!
stales
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addict
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So why is it double the percentage?
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Doc I'm tempted to say it's because it's American and therefore overstated - like the "World" series - but I won't. Can't get an explicit statement as to why, but the site below gives a hint. "Proof spirit" in the US is said to be 100 Proof - gives one a decimal to work with. Pure alcohol (which one doesn't/shouldn't drink) is 200 Proof. Of course the Poms have to be different - their pure alcohol is 175.25 proof. http://www.sasky.com/saskycom/databases/spirits/index3As regards the word Proof, it was apparently first used in the 17th century by whiskey dealers. Unscrupulous dealers used to add water to their whiskey to increase their profits, so to combat this, whiskey was tested by pouring a sample onto some gunpowder and setting it alight. If the gunpowder ignited after the alcohol had burned off, it was proof that the whiskey had not contained too much water. One can assume from this that a 50% ethanol / 50% water mix (ie 100 Proof) is the minimum blend that will not affect gunpowder's ability to burn after a soaking. stales
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How do you go about lighting wet gunpowder?
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How do you go about lighting wet gunpowder?
Carefully, I'd say!
- Pfranz
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Speaking of the Navy, this came in my mail this AM:
A friend of mine is an officer in the naval reserve. A few weeks ago, He was attending a conference that included admirals in both the US and the French navies. At a cocktail reception, my friend found himself in a small group that included an admiral from each of the two navies. The French admiral started complaining that whereas Europeans learned many languages,Americans only learned English. He then asked. "Why is it that we have to speak English in these conferences rather than you have to speak French?"
Without even hesitating, the American admiral replied. "Maybe it is because we arranged it so that you did not have to learn to speak German."
The group became silent.
I would think VERY silent.
TEd
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Very quick, but the American didn't really answer the quesiton. He avoided it.
- Pfranz
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" Proof refers to the percentage of ethyl alcohol by volume in any particular type of alcoholic beverage. Proof corresponds to twice the percentage rate. For example, a bottle of whiskey may be 80 proof or 40% alcohol by volume."
If I recall correctly, there's more to it than that. If you take a liter of grain and mix it with a liter of water, you don't get two liters of mixture, you get less. Here's why:
The molecules of water and alcohol intersperse with one another in less volume. Consider what happens when you pour together a bushel of peas and a bushel of potatoes. You don't get two bushels of the mixture, because the peas fill in the spaces between the potatoes. Same with alcohol and water.
And that's why there are varying uses of proof, if I remember my high school science teacher correctly. Some people determine the proof by using percentage of volume and others by percentage of weight. When I get a chance I'll see if I can do a bit more research on this. I would think that chance will come around the 9th of June. Assistance willbe greatly appreciated.
TEd
TEd
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Actually, he did, just like the women who ask the pope not to get involved in birth control issues: If you don't play the game don't make the rules.
The American admiral was telling the French one exactly that. There is a widespread perception that the French showed their bellies far too early in WW II and thus they lost a lot of clout on the world scene, including the clout to insist that nationals of other countries learn to speak French, which at one time was THE language of diplomacy. Why else the term "lingua franca?"
TEd
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It's "He no playa da game, he no maka da rules".
I still say the American was rude. He was asked a legitimate question and turned it aside with a sneer. Probably most people went silent because of embarrassment or anger.
As was stated in a newspaper in NZ (the Dominion Post) a couple of days ago, it's a strange old world when the best rapper is white, the best golfer is black, the French can accuse the Americans of arrogance, and the Germans don't want to go to war ...
- Pfranz
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I remember reading that if you take a full glass of milk and drop in, kernel by kernel, a full glass of popcorn it won't overflow. Haven't tried it yet.
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>popcorn
Popped or unpopped?
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popped, definately popped.
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my Dad used to have that every Sunday evening for supper...
he still would but it doesn't agree with him so well anymore... not quite sure where he picked it up, I'll have to ask him.
formerly known as etaoin...
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For the same reason they didn't for the most part have iron nails...it rusts! the best wooden ships were made with wooden pegs, and mortice and tenon joints. the seams were sealed with oakem (made in Dickens' time, at the 'work house', by poor homeless folk, in return for what we would now call welfare or the dole) Oakem is wood that has been pounded into threads.
a bo'sun was lowered over the side of the ship to pack oakem into the joints, and seal them with hot tar. small leather or canvas seats, raised and lowered by ropes (used by workers building the Hoover Dam, and by rock gardeners) are still called bo'sun seats.
The metal tools used by the sailors, all had leather thongs, and would be worn on the wrist, so if they slipped from the sailors hand, they would not sink. Wooden mallets, if dropped, would float.
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I think he didn't even come close to an answer to the question. IMNSHO French lost the battle for international language of diplomacy when the concept of the Language Academy receded from the English shores. English retained its ability to adapt and French became a fossil.
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Pooh-Bah
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Nah. French lost the battle as the diplomatic language as an outcome of losing the Napoleonic Wars. To the victors, the spoils.
- Pfranz
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Who said that first?
stales
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Senator William Learned Marcy of New York in 1832.
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Pooh-Bah
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Looks like you're right dxb. I thought it was Marlowe!
- Pfranz
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Well Shipmates - it took a few weeks, but finally heard back from the USN on the alleged drinking habits aboard the USS Constitution:
"You are in fact having you leg pulled. This story is perhaps the most frequently spread untruth about the CONSTITUTION and certainly the one I am asked to respond to most often. It makes a great story - emphasizing the ability of our sailors to consume alchohol - but is not only improbable, but impossible.
*While it is true that CONSTITUTION cruised the West Indies during this time frame, it was to protect US shipping from FRENCH privateers, not the British.
*CONSTITUTION was moored in Boston Massachusetts from 10 November through 28 December 1798, which negates the trip overseas.
*Of the vessels engaged with CONSTITUTION during 1799, none of them were British, all were French.
*CONSTITUTION was in port at Prince Rupert's Bay, Dominica between 24 January through 01 February 1799.
One should also note, that the consumption of alchohol on board ship was carefully measured and monitored. Sailors were regulated to rations of rum a day, equaling about a pint total. The rum was guarded by marines and doled
out my the ship's Master at Arms.
I hope that this information is what you were looking for.
Respectfully,
SN Tamara Morris, USS CONSTITUTION
So now we know. Apologies to those (any?) that took it as kosher, there did seem to be a question over the whole thing from the outset.
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A few years ago we had sailors from an American ship and a British ship in Portsmouth at the same time. In course of conversation it emerged that English ships allow liquor aboard .. in Officers Mess, Chief's Mess etc. None on US ships. However aboard the US ships you can get breakfsst at any time of day or night. Sailors all said they liked it when they were moored alongside. Booze and breakfast a "fair exchange." Just a bit of lore. No significance!
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stranger
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I always thought "proof" referred to the yeast used in brewing. When a brewer -- or a baker -- activates yeast by mixing it with a another substance, such as water or milk, he is said to be "proofing" the yeast. Not sure why it now indicates the strength of alcohol.
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Proof meant (and still does in certain contexts) test. It can have a lot of different meanings depending. The exception can prove the rule and find it wanting. The brewer will proof the yeast to find out if it's still alive. The distiller proofs the spirit against a standard and gives it a numeric value based on its relation to that standard. By the time the spirit gets to the distiller the yeast is long gone.
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Proof meant (and still does in certain contexts) test Exceptio probit reglam or whatever the accurate Latin isThe exception tests the rule ( NOT "proves"  )
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The exception tests the rule
Exact ell mont. When the Latin got translated prove meant test. It's like Adam and Eve and the apple. We kept the word rather than the meaning when the meaning shifted.
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
It's like Adam and Eve and the apple. Yes, when she put the apple to her lips and took a bite: the proof is in the putting...
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Jackie, take thee and thy pomegranate and get y'all's bad se'ves to a nunnery! 
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Today, mine own true love and my wife and I went to Hartlepool which is to hell and gone over on the east coast of Yorkshire. Hartlepool has an interesting history which I won't bore you with (oh, all right then, I will, kinda). But what it does have is an old dockyard which has been tarted up and restored to what might have been its early 19th century splendour. Interesting in its own right. But the real reason we trooped 210 miles north of home was to have a look over the HMS Trincomalee. The Trincomalee, known to the locals as the Trinc, is a genuine fifth rate Royal Navy frigate, commissioned in 1817. It was built in India from Indian hardwood and it had been ordered because of the shortage of seasoned English oak which the 20-year Napoleonic Wars and the demands of naval building the wars created. The Trinc never saw action, but managed to survive, mainly because of its continued seaworthiness, right up until 1987 despite being pretty much little more than a hulk. Some local Hartlepool nutcases (well, you'd need to be, wouldn't you?) acquired her and berthed her in the old Hartlepool dock and then set to work restoring her. And they've done an absolutely amazing job of it. Full marks - insanity pays! She is a 38-gun frigate, although she was over-gunned to 46 guns (including six rather wicked-looking carronades). Anyway, as a result of our discussion about orlop decks above, I went down into the hold to have a look at the orlop deck on the Trinc. There isn't room to swing a cat in any direction down there. There is less than five feet of headroom and access is via a very steep companionway. Trinc may never have seen action, but her sister ship, the HMS Shannon, fought and captured the USS Chesapeake in 1813. This link: http://data2.archives.ca/ap/c/c040089k.jpgshows you what the Trinc would have looked like in her heyday. Thought some of you might be interested!
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,535 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,535 Likes: 1 |
six rather wicked-looking carronades"Can you expand on "carronade"? I misread it at first as "cannonade," which I know is a furious bombardment of cannonfire, but this is my first encounter with carronade. EDIT: Answering my own question: See http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/gen1.htmIt would have made such a lovely Hogwash word, too...
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
mine own true love and my wife and I TMI 
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
I think he's talking about his car...
formerly known as etaoin...
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
The carronades on the Trinc are on wheeled carriages. Carrying only six of them, all of them on the upper deck, I would imagine that they would be shifted from place to place in a hurry when power over accuracy was required.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
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OP
old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
Cap
Noted the (lack of) headroom in square riggers when I visited the Endeavour replica a few years ago. I think she was less than 5' tween decks though.
Difficult to imagine how the company made their way around in heavy seas. Maybe because the deck would've been canted whilst at sea the low height might have been easier to negotiate. (Pythagorus and all).
I know folks weren't as tall in those days, but there musta been a few headaches!
stales
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
musta been a few headaches!
I had a friend during my shipboard days who had gotten a waiver for his excessive height allowing him to join the Navy. He had the whole overhead area of the major passageways of the ship memorized. Watching him walk at full speed bobbing his head about to avoid various projections was a real delight. One day he was walking past the area where the daily coffee ration for each work space was handed out. The window through which the coffee was handed out had a shutter that was hinged at the top; it swung out and was hooked to the overhead during the time that the coffee was handed out. He didn't have the shutter programmed into his map and he walked into it at full speed.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 36
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 36 |
What's the problem with go navy?
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247 |
I knew an officer who was assigned to the position whose primary duties were to strut around the ship wearing the uniform of an officer of that era.
Sinecure? Sounds like a lot of work to me. Whadda' ya do for downtime?
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