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I've been very sceptical about intelligence tests given to dogs--remember reading about one in which it had been determined that the standard-sized French poodle was the smartest dog.
Dogs aside--since dogs are pretty smart, but not as smart as cats--which mammal is probably the least intelligent? There's bound to be one dumb-as-dirt mammal out there. Oppossums?
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excepting the obvious, o' course? 
formerly known as etaoin...
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>There's bound to be one dumb-as-dirt mammal out there.
Texan Republicans?
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I know this ain't science, et. I'm just wondering and considering various mammals that it could be argued are dumb-as-dirt.
Now chickens seem to be pretty dumb, although I've read about how smart they are. Ha! As if! But bird brains--though I certainly respect bird brains--have been made light of many a time, even if erroneously.
But back to mammals. What is a good candidate for a dumb mammal, even if also an erroneous proposition?
I had a pretty dumb dog once upon time. You'd tell that dog to sit and that dog would lie down. If you said, "No, sit!" That dog would roll over and suddenly get up and put its paws on your shoulders. It would do everything but sit. It would go through all kinds of tricks while I asked it to sit. I sure laughed at that dog a lot. Maybe it just liked the sound of laughter. I don't know. It was a great dog, though pretty dumb. The reason it was a great dog is because it was affectionate, and affection carries a lot of value in my book.
But back to truly dumb mammals. Which one is probably the dumbest?
It wouldn't be the shrew. I'd expect shrews to be shrewd.
Lemmings? Are lemmings pretty dumb compared to other mammals?
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Dear WW: Animal intelligence is very difficult to measure. I have always been very fond of cats,
ut do not share your high regard for their intelligence. I remember a psychologist telling me that
pigs were so smart they couldn't be used as test animals, because they so quickly figured out
what the test was about they gave very misleading results. I think that intelligence in animals is
likely to parallel closely the benefits they derive from it. I think I might nominate your pal the
hippopotamus, as among the most stupid, because it has virtually no predators to fear and hardly
any decisions to make. Now it occurs to me that the elephant also with no predators except man
to fear is quite smart. At least it can be taught taught, and allegedly has a proverbial memory.
Whi;ch reminds me of the legend about the mule that remembered for many years having been
tormented,until it finally got a chance at revenge. I'll have to go see if I can find that story.
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Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
--Robert A. Heinlein
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Aside from homo sapiens, I think it could well be the hippopotamus. now don't start on their "hooves" again, sjm!
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I think it could well be the hippopotamus. now don't start on their "hooves" again, sjm!
'Twere Oliphaunts what I was ranting about hooves, not happypottymouses. Sheesh!
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The stupidest mammal has to be the ai because he needs three to do what the unau manages with only two. And that's not a lot.
Hippopotamus? We're not back with Flanders and Swann again are we?
Hippopotamus? Reminds me of my favourite cartoon. Shows two hippos nostril deep in a jungle pool, just floating idly. One says, "You know, I keep thinking its Thursday."
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And there is no excuse for hippos getting thirsty.
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'Twere Oliphaunts what I was ranting about hooves, not happypottymouses. Sheesh!It had to be happypottymice because Oliphuants, as everyone know, don't have hooves!  Sheesh!
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Has anyone read Bill Bryson's book - Made In America (or something like that) where he mentions the moose as being one of the most, if not THE most stupid creature on earth* (hooves again!!) - an example of their rather dozy nature being that they apparently run towards an approaching car in the hope of escaping it (I can't get hold of a quote from the book right now). I would like to add, however that, since there has been apparently no study of moose phycology it is possible that their dozey nature is due to constant and deep immertion in interlectual and philosophical thought (e.g: hmmm, grass... one of the many roots of all life and matter possibly created by, but not limited to, some type of divine, yet obviously debatable, intervention... " then again, it could just be something like, "hmmm, grass... mmmmmmmm!"
*With the possible exception of certain homo sapiens...
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(not your quote but)
Hunters will tell you that a moose is a wily and ferocious forest creature. In fact, a moose is a cow drawn by a three year old. A moose runs as if its legs have never been introduced to each other. Even its antlers are hopeless. Other creatures grow antlers with sharp points that look wonderful in profile and command the respect of adversaries. Moose grow antlers that look like oven gloves.
-Bill Bryson, A Walk in the Woods
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moose talkHi, musick!  sorry, I just couldn't keep meself from loosing such a golden opportunity!
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(not your quote but)No, no - that was exactly the quote I was thinking of, I just got the name of the book wrong, thanks for finding it! 
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Dangerous Drunken Moose
Herds of drunken Moose from Norway have crossed the frontier into the Russian region of Murmansk. These animals are
considered as dangerous because of their aggressive behaviou
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wwh, where on earth did you read about drunken moose from Norway? How did they get drunk? I've heard of elephants eating fermented bananas and getting drunk...
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I was interested in this new (to me) use in Dr. Bill's article:
For the next three to four weeks, the bull will work at gathering a harem of cows, breeding each one in turn as she hits the peak of her estrous cycle.
Many (most?) AWADers will have far more experience of breeding than I do, but I always understood the transitive use to refer to people choosing two animals to mate with each other in order for them to produce offspring with traits the humans think desirable. Here it seems to be used to mean "mate with". Is this a standard term that has hitherto escaped my notice or is mate with now considered too blunt to be used in polite company (assuming the readers of Close to the Land are considered polite company, of course)?
Bingley
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Terrific story, wwh, and very well-written. Makes me long to breathe in the scent of cranberries. I liked this part especially:
Challenges are most often dealt with through posturing and display of antlers. Whoever looks the biggest wins.
Of course, the writer went on to describe situations in which the bulls fight and injure each other, sometimes fatally. But I like this part above that indicates that sometimes size itself wards off battles.
Bingley, I found the use of 'breed' in the quote you mentioned odd, too. I think of farmers breeding animals (and, please, y'all, no chicken/sheep comments), but I don't think of animals breeding each other. Must check a dictionary.
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Source: The Collins English Dictionary © 1998 HarperCollins Publishers
breed [brid]
vb. breeds, breeding. bred.
1. to bear (offspring).
2. (tr.) to bring up; raise.
3. to produce or cause to produce by mating; propagate.
4. to produce and maintain new or improved strains of (domestic animals and plants).
5. to produce or be produced; generate: to breed trouble; violence breeds in densely populated areas.
n.
6. a group of organisms within a species, esp a group of domestic animals, originated and maintained by man and having a clearly defined set of characteristics.
7. a lineage or race: a breed of Europeans.
8. a kind, sort, or group: a special breed of hatred.
[Old English bredan, of Germanic origin; related to {brood}]
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Dear Bingley: I'm reminded of a story told me by a very refined young lady. A farmer saw
that his sow was in oestrus, so loaded her into his wheelbarrow and took her to a farm to
the east to be bred. But she did not conceive, so when oestrus recurred, he put her in
his wheelbarrow, and took her to a farm to the south. Still no results, so when oestrus
signs recurred, he put her in the wheelbarrow, and took her to a farm to the west.
Still no luck. When oestrus again was observed, the sow was already in the wheelbarrow.
Which goes to show you shouldn't let yourself get in a rut.
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A bull moose in rut is dangerous. An elephant * must* be far more so Kipling spelled
it musth.
must2 7must8
n.
5Hindi mast, intoxicated < Pers mast < IE base *mad3, to be moist > MEAT6 a state of frenzy in animals, esp. in the male elephant, usually associated with sexual heat
adj.
in must
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I must, therefor I do. [whistling, looking out the window-e]
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While visiting Norway in 1992, I heard stories about the carribou/reindeer of northern Scandanavia (Lapland, etc.) leaving thier 'home on the range' because thier food supply had already "left", and they were found wandering the streets of southern, more populated areas much more often. They were fleeing the disasterous effects of the catastrophy at Chernobyl.
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I can understand indicence ofthyroid and other cancers in children being high as result
of nuclear catastrophe at Chernobyl. I have never heard that the caribou/reindeer of
Scandinavia were affected in a way that would make them migrate. They too might
have cancers, but why would that make them migrate? Looking for a veterinary oncologist?
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Dear musick: Deadly doses of radioactive materials would be completely tasteless. That long
remport made no mention of effect on any land animals. What a bunch of bastards the Russian
nuclear people were. Too bad the admirers of the Communists can't be made to go clean up the
mess. "I have seen the future, and it works." Bullshit.
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wwh - Section 22 of that report reveals a bit of it. (I was kidding about the *flavor, sorry I left out the asterisk) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1086547.stm
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Dear musick: I think that a dose of radiation that might harm the animal would not cause a
concentration high enough in the edible parts to be a serious health hazard. I would however
not eat meat that had any measureable amount of radioactive material in it.
I still don't see any relation between the radioactive stuff and moose migrating to the
cities.
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I'm sure it was a *feeling they had about what was going on around them. I was told it took about four years for the birds to come back and that the silence during that time was 'deafening'.
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Predator of the lemming: long-tailed skkuasWhuh? wwh, your link was rife with spelling errors, and that made it fun to read. It's always fun to read articles on the Net that have spelling errors! But the long-tailed skkuas? I must go look for that word: skkua. Could it have been skunk? Or is there a skkua and I just never heard of one! Anyway, I'm glad you posted the link, if only to learn the whole lemmings-into-the-sea is myth--and provided by Disney!
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skua British, jaeger
noun [C]
a type of large sea bird which lives in the north Atlantic and steals food from other birds
Well, that explains that. wwh's link misspelled skua, among lots of other words!
Sorry, Scrabble fans. You can't use those two k's for skkua. (Are there two k's in Scrabble?)
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You can't use those two k's for skkua. (Are there two k's in Scrabble?)
...There can be if you use a blankk for one...
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Disney didn't invent that fairytale. I remember reading it seventy years ago. Here's a link that sounds very sensible. When lemming population explodes, they have to migrate in large numbers. At times in strange terrirory, the ones behind may crowd the ftont ones off a cliff. Sounds sensible to me. http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.htm
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In reply to:
...There can be if you use a blankk for one...
Smart-A in every group!
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skua...large sea bird which lives in the north Atlantic and steals food from other birds
Ther may be more widespread than that: I recall reading that skua steal penguin eggs, too. Having a fondness for penguins I wish the birds had stayed up North after all.
Edit: But since penguins are birds too, I guess the original statement stands as written.
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Well, while we're on the subject of strange birds, we can't very well leave this one out, can we?: http://www.kiwi.bird.freeservers.com/Kiwis lay the biggest eggs! why am I not surprised?"However, kiwis left Australia for New Zealand at some point, possibly on land links via New Caledonia. So, although there are no wild kiwis left there, Australians may also proudly point to the kiwi as "their bird". (Hmmmm...) To hear the sound of a kiwi, click here: http://www.learnz.org.nz/2k/nestegg/index.htm oh, dear me!!!...no comment!
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I heard on NPR this morning about an octopus that has been trained to open jars of shrimp for its lunch.
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How about the salmon farms that can teach salmon to return to artificial pond where they
were spawned, by putting a distinctive chemical into the water? (Maybe the process can be
extended to teach the salmon to jump into tin cans, ready to be sold.)
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Juan,
Kiwis don't lay the largest eggs; ostriches do. Your link indicated that kiwis lay the largest eggs in proportion to their body size. But the ostrich lays the largest bird egg out there.
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Yes, WW, you're absolutely correct. I thought of correcting Juan at the time, but was more concerned by the statement that the kiwi could be considered an Australian bird. In fact, the passage Juan quoted merely proves that the kiwi of yore had the wit, good taste, and plain common sense to leave Australia and not go back, thereby distinguishing itself as a truly bright bird.
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Careful, Juan. Sounds to me like she's bucking for your title as Nit-picker in Chief.
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Speaking of nit pickers. A Brown grad told me of bringing his date into foyer of frat house,
and their being amused by spectacle of intoxicated frater totally naked, with feet up on center
table with large goldfish bowl, with magnifying glass and tweezers, picking nits and crabs off
his pubic area, and feeding them to the goldfish.
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WW - We finally have an answer to your *original question.
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Yeah, WW, Kiwi eggs are about 1/3 (one third!) of the female Kiwi's weight (averages here, of course) it would be about the same as a human, let's say average weight if 100 lbs, giving birth to a 30 to 35 lb baby!
I once, in very short passing, weighed 100,(on my way to a larger size) but my children, when born, were "big"-- my son was 9 lbs, my daughter, 9lbs, 15 ounces.(both were 24 inches long--so they were big, not just well padded!) Not even 10% of my weight.
i feel very sorry for the poor momma kiwi who has to lay an egg that big!
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In reply to:
To hear the sound of a kiwi, click here:
http://www.learnz.org.nz/2k/nestegg/index.htm
Do they travel in time and relative dimensions in space?
Bingley
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In reply to:
I heard on NPR this morning about an octopus that has been trained to open jars of shrimp for its lunch.
Why? Why had the octopus been so trained? Just to see whether it could?
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Nope. Now they don't have to take the octopus to a kennel when they go on vacation
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connie, There are a couple news stories out there -- here's BBC's take: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2796607.stmMaybe our Jazzoctopus can shed further light.
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Do they travel in time and relative dimensions in space?
Jelly Baby®?
formerly known as etaoin...
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Terrific little story there, Asp.
"We just did it in the tank a few times and eventually she
cottoned on," he said.
From where does this 'cotton' come?
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Dear WW: I suspect the metaphor "to cotton on" originated in Virginia.
E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.
Now have you caught on?
Cotton.
To cotton to a person. To cling to one or take a fancy to a person. To stick to a person as cotton
sticks to our clothes.
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I like your 'caught on' = 'cotton' better than the cotton clinging explanation, wwh. I've been in a cotton field and I'd say cotton's pretty hard to remove rather than the opposite.
But this "caught on" for "cotton" is cute! But I'll take the explanation you provided as fact. Oh, well--a cool fancy down the brain....
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Going on diet I'd say that the Koala is pretty brainless. Eucalyptus doesn't exactly stimulate the nervous system and the slow-moving, dopiness can only be attributed to this diet.
Yes, they can get vicious but that doesn't necessarily imply any higher plane intelligence.
Speaking of octopods my photography lecture last night was about Natural History and there was one interesting fact which came up. All living creatures on earth are carbon-based except for octopods which are copper based. This explains their ability to change colour so quickly. What I'd like to know is how the hell they managed to evolve!
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Here's another explanation for cotton on: http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/14/messages/195.htmlAnd, Rubrick, I'd like to know what the hell you heard that caused you to make this observation! There's no way copper is going to fill in for carbon in meaningful way in biochemical structures. Carbon is IV A and copper is VIII.
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'd like to know what the hell you heard that caused you to make this observation! There's no way copper is going to fill in for carbon in meaningful way in biochemical structures. Carbon is IV A and copper is VIII.
Don't shoot the messenger! I doubted it but I thought maybe someone else here could shed some light. I take it that it's not possible but I'd like to hear arguments to the contrary. Are Cephalopods carbon-based or copper-based?
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Silence in the court! I too was dumbfounded by the "copper based" allegation. I found a site that sets it straight. It's just their blood that is copper based. I used to know that, but had forgottten it. http://www.vfs.com/~jhumphre/portfolio/video.htm
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Makes sense. My blood is 35% pure alcohol and methylated spirits so I guess it's possible to have a different blood base to your over all body base.
Thanks for that, Dr. Bill.
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It's just their blood that is copper based
So it's copper based as opposed to iron based. That I can buy. They're both VIII.
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kiwi eggsAw, just stretchin' it a bit for the sake of a joke. I've seen sjm and Cap lay a mighty big egg or two around here along the way... Careful, Juan. Sounds to me like she's bucking for your title as Nit-picker in Chief.Well, Faldo since you're the NitPick CEO, and I seem to have been elected (ahem) the COO, I guess we'll have to make WW the CFO. --Grasshopper dumbest mammalI seem to recall reading something somewhere about the lack of intelligence of a platypus along the way...does a dumb platypus ring a bell?...anyone?
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haven't we seen ample evidence that the dumbest mammal is the coyote?! <beep beep!>
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As a bit of medical trivia, blood formation requires a very tiny amount of copper. So tiny that
when research was being done on copper requirments over sixty years ago, the researchers
were baffled as to difficulty in producing copper deficiency in rabbits. After many months, someone
noticed rabbit liking brass wire holding tag on cage, and realized they were getting tiny but
adequate amounts of copper from the brass.
Tinier still is the amoount of cobalt necessary in Vitamin B 12
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One wonders what the linguistc background is of the translator ... and one wonders even more, if Herr Müller did indeed speak English in that interview, where he learned it!?
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No nits here. Those ostrich eggs are big mother suckers!
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I seem to recall reading something somewhere about the lack of intelligence of a platypus along the way...does a dumb platypus ring a bell?...
Not intentionally.
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does a dumb platypus ring a bell?...
well, when it does, a dumb human starts to drool...
formerly known as etaoin...
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horseshoe crabs (and i don't think these are close relationship to octopods) also have lovely blue blood, with copper, not Iron as the oxygen carrying compound.
horseshoe crabs are very old (ie, they haven't changed much or evolved) and are found up and down the US east coast, as far south as the carolinas and as far north as southern maine.
they live in the sea, but lay their eggs above the high water mark (in June, with the equinox)
I was a NYC vollunteer helping Woods Hole researchers doing a study on the poputlation, and helped catch them one day some years ago. there blood is used to create a stain/dye that is used to test for gram negitive bacteria (nasty things gram negitive bacteria, TB is one)
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Yeahbut®, ot...if horseshoe crabs were mammals then we'd need a new word for crustaceons!
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Sorry Juan, i was unaware that octopods are members of the mammilia family, or for that matter, Kiwi or all the other animals that have come up
the answer, of course, is the last mammal that became extinque.
smart animals adapt to new challenges, dumb animals get done in. wooly mommouths were big, (and could feed the village for weeks) and had tough skin, and tusks, but they were not smart enough to outwit men armed with wooden sticks and stone spear tips. and so they are no more...
i think there are other marine animals that have copper based blood, not just horseshoe crabs and octopods.
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Notice that copper is essential to blood formation in humans"
Anemia
low Biotin (rare)
low Copper (early) - (hypochromic, microcytic)
low Essential Fatty Acids (see our Signal369)
low Folic Acid (megaloblastic)
low Iron (hypochromic, microcytic)
low Magnesium (hemolytic)
low Phosphorus (hemolytic)
low Riboflavin (normochromic, normocytic)
low Selenium (hemolytic)
high Vitamin A
low Vitamin B6 (microcytic)
low Vitamin B12 (megaloblastic)
low Vitamin C (scurvy)
low Vitamin E (hemolytic)
low Vitamin K (hypoprothrombinemia)
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but they were not smart enough to outwit men armed with wooden sticks and stone spear tips.
and the humans were too stupid not to kill off an easy supply of food, so they had to find something else...
ah, but I chop mammoth...
formerly known as etaoin...
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Latest theories suggest there was some inadvertent disease trasmission involved.
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Dear Faldage: this senile citizen found your comment bafflingly cryptic. What disease from whom to whom?
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Dear Faldage: I do not believe that the small number of humans with very primitive weapons
could have covered enough ground to wipe out a widespread population of any animal.
Climate change does indeed make new diseases spread. My father never had to worry about
hearworm in his hunting dogs. West Nile may be a brand new virus, that climate change may
have facilitated spread.
Men wiped out the carrier pidgeon with shotguns.Sailors wiped out the the great auk.
That is believable. I think the archaeologists are extrapolating illogically from that.
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Just playing off the running "mammal" subject there, Helen.
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the small number of humans with very primitive weapons
could have covered enough ground to wipe out a widespread population of any animal.
The overhunting theory was the original theory and more or less unquestioned for many years. The others are relatively recent and have been summarily rejected by those whose minds have been made up. Nobody, save you, seems to be ready to entertain the notion that it might have been a combination of ingredients.
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Dear Faldage: there were horses in South America long before humans were, and extinct
long beefore humans arrived. What killed them off?
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Nobody, save you, seems to be ready to entertain the notion that it might have been a combination of ingredients.
I believe, I believe!!!
formerly known as etaoin...
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