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#95294 02/12/03 02:23 AM
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In The Vocabula Review, "Scarcely Used Word" I encountered "longeur" defined:
" longueur (long-GUR) n. a long, tedious passage in a work of literature or performing art. "

I have been unable to find any confirmation of this definition, and think it erroneous.
at best a clumsy coinage.
"la longeur" in French means "length". I found French usage of it for length of eyelashes,
length of hair, length of waves of light, etc.
The only use of it in English I could find was an essay by George Orwell, quoting Byron,
but not defining it, and not worth quoting here.

Anyone care to defend The Vocabula Review's definition. When I tried to get into a forum
there to discuss it, and clicked on the button provided I found myself out in the alley with
the door shut and locked. Twice. Badword them.


#95295 02/12/03 03:42 AM
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Bill, I know how you like to bad word the OED, too, so here is a long and tedious list of citations therefrom for..

longueur - [Fr. = length.]
A lengthy or tedious passage of writing. Also in extended use, of music, etc.
[The form longeur in quots. 1959 and 1970 is erron.]
1791 H. Walpole Let. 26 May (1905) XIV. 437 Boswell's book is gossiping;.. but there are woful longueurs, both about his hero and himself. 1821 Byron Juan iii. xcvii, I know that what our neighbours call ‘longueurs’, (We've not so good a word, but have the thing,).. Form not the true temptation which allures The reader. 1866 Nation (N.Y.) 16 Aug. 127/2 In what other writer than George Eliot could we forgive so rusty a plot, and such langueurs [sic] of exposition? 1887 Dowden Life Shelley I. v. 183 Admirable moralists, no doubt, were Fenelon and Marmontel, but there are longueurs in their writings. 1892 I. Zangwill Childr. Ghetto I. 5 The terrible longueurs induced by the meaningless ministerial repetition of prayers already said by the congregation. 1950 ‘G. Orwell’ Shooting Elephant 41 A kind of pattern.. survives the complications and the longueurs [in King Lear]. 1952 ‘M. Cost’ Hour Awaits 251 This sense of impending pause in herself—this longueur of spirit. 1958 Times 22 Dec. 5/5 Should the recitalist be an imperfect executant, the audience must listen for much too long a period, with only one interval to alleviate the longueurs. 1959 Guardian 2 Nov. 7/1 One was aware of extensive stretches in which nothing historically worth while seemed to be going on—longeurs which the Director of History.. would not have tolerated in his scenario. 1963 Times Lit. Suppl. 18 Jan. 40/3 Some of his own early experiences were clearly embedded: the longueurs of the middle-class Sunday, the deadly frustrations of office routine. 1970 Times 29 May 7/2 Despite the show's contradictions and longeurs, it does at least attempt something audacious and original. 1971 Guardian 18 Feb. 9/8 There are so many longueurs in most of the originals that one can hardly jib at Miss Wilson's frequent condensations. 1974 Times 6 Mar. 14/8 A perfect committee man, he would remain wholly silent—and even asleep—during the longueurs not unknown in university meetings.



#95296 02/12/03 03:53 AM
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Dear Dr. Bill: Sounds like you could look to James A. Michener for an abundance of examples...perhaps our foremost modern longeurist.


#95297 02/12/03 05:05 AM
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Dear wwh, Another case of an erroneus spelling is in Orwell's essay on Nationalism, where the opening sentence refers to Byron's usage of the word, 'longuer'.

An abridged version of this essay was a compulsory read for us in high school. I was scanning through the essay again, in its unabridged form available online and the first thing that popped up was the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism; maybe we should start another thread on that! If we can find the time to first plod through the whole essay, that is! . Thanks wwh, for bringing this up, albeit indirectly.

http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/nat.htm


#95298 02/12/03 01:37 PM
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Dear tsuwm: the only thing I have against the OED is their presenting gross errors in word
usage, without any comment. I don't advocate prescriptivism, but such things as "negative ullage"
burn me up.
I am really surprised that I could find only the one quote using "longeur". The English have a
talent for mangling French, and this is a good example.I still get a chuckle out of the scene in
"Grande Illusion" in the POW camp, when the Frenchman tries to tell a Colonel Blimp type about
the tujnel.
What name can anybody give for the metaphor that would change "length" into "something too long"?


#95299 02/12/03 01:49 PM
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Dear Dr. Bill: One done might say Honoré de Balzac is a longuer by the sheer volume of his work (novels). However, the man managed to produce mostly quality word despite the vast quantity...truly remarkable.


#95300 02/12/03 01:57 PM
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Dear WO'N: what name can you give to the metaphor you are trying to use?
It seems to require several steps. Length to something that is too long,
to a person who makes things too long. Perhaps only in the mind of a prejudiced
critic. Would you call Tolkien a loneur? That comes next.


#95301 02/12/03 03:20 PM
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I'm not sure what's going on here. We started out with a misspell of longueur, which resulted in a paucity of search hits and a questioning of the definition. (longueur gets 812,000 on the google-ometer.) Now we're questioning the etymological leap from 'length' to 'excessive length'?

Perhaps we should take a look at AHD4: French, from Old French longor, a protracted discussion, from long, long, from Latin longus.
That's it! We can blame it on the French..



#95302 02/12/03 03:31 PM
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I changed my search words to "English metaphor longeur" and found a site where a pair of
exquisite aesthets were indulging in mutual admiration about the long poems of one of them.

"I'm sure you're right that once or twice I've lingered a little too long over the etymological
marrow in the bone. I think of a poem like "Cows" where the speaker makes much of the
etymology of the word "boreen". What I was hoping might come across is that I'm very
conscious of this being a longeur, of it being downright boring, but I'm not sure
if I've signaled that sufficiently, if I've given a reader enough evidence for the ironised tone. "

And what in hell does "boreen" mean? If he didn't know, why in hell did he use it, except to
mischievously mystify?

Edit: having guessed it might be Gaelic, I found it:
boreen [borin]
n. Irish. a country lane or narrow road. [from Irish Gaelic boithrin,
diminutive of bothar road]

#95303 02/12/03 03:32 PM
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That's it! We can blame it on the French..

Like I said...it's all Balzac's fault!




#95304 02/12/03 03:40 PM
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And what in hell does "boreen" mean?

Hmmm - a 'nice' discussion your two friends were having. Definitely one to avoid, that poem. Why would anyone set out to produce boring poetry?

I believe boreen is Irish for a cart track, but I can't find it anywhere. Will keep looking.

Ah! Too late, you found it!


#95305 02/12/03 03:42 PM
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Dear tsuwm: it looks to ;me as though you invented "longueur". I didn't.
I still think its use is a an unadmirable ostentation based on a erroneous use.


#95306 02/12/03 03:48 PM
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. Would you call Tolkien a loneur? That comes next.

Dear Dr. Bill: No, I wouldn't even think of putting Tolkien in this catgory. Trilogies are now a time-honored literary tradition, especially in the fantasy/science fiction genres.
However, I might call Tolkien a loneur, as you so insightfully pointed out, since I consider him to be a one-of-a-kind.

In alluding to Michener, who's works grew in length due to his propensity for detail, and Balzac, I guess I was pointing out that someone can be long-winded without necessarily becoming so verbose or prolix as to seriously wound their work. This would seem to be somewhat of a departure from the "tedious passage" semantic of longeur/longueur, pointing, instead, to the creator rather than the work. Then, also, someone like Michener could stray into many longeurs in the course of a work, without, ultimately, serioulsy damaging the work as a whole (though I never had the patience to wade through that much detail...I started The Drifters four times, and finally gave up...the only Michener I got through in entirety was Tales of the South Pacific when I was appearing in the musical South Pacific [see, as an actor I always did my "homework" (smile)], but that was a collection of short stories).



#95307 02/12/03 04:03 PM
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my apologies: apparently "longeur" and "longueur" are used almost interchangeably.


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