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I gather today marks the 75th anniversary of TV pictures being transmitted.
To what extent, and in what ways, do you think exposure to TV has altered perception and use of language? Does this vary from country to country?
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To what extent, and in what ways, do you think exposure to TV has altered perception and use of language?
I have always felt that my lack of a local or Southern accent (vocabulary) is attributed to television exposure. When I heard most newspersons and actors speaking in a very clean, unaccented American way, I realized that this was the more proper way to speak. I realized that "Yall reckon we oughta" rather than "Do you think we should" for example, was going to mark me with a stigma when I came into contact with non-Tennesseeans. I would have never known the difference if not for Media showing me the less coloured way of speaking.
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Someone (lost in the mist of things once read) once likened TV power to communicate and share information to Gutenberg's invention of the printing press–only they felt the analogy would only hold true if nothing but comic books had been printed for the first 500 years.
it's nice to hear Xara that TV offered you a "mid atlantic" accent to emulate, but region words and accents make the world interesting. It's still true that the Cumberland's have a gaps, but in NH, Dicksville has a notch. (NY/NJ have a gaps too, notch's only start north of NY.)
TV tends to homogenize. One of the joys of AWAD is that there are so many views, so many words, so many ways of saying the same word– schedule has two reasonably standard pronunciations, but there are many words that act as marker for regions. how do you pronounce ROOF?
I hate Mc Donalds too. Standardization is for insects. Human are diverse! ( Heinlien, more or less))
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Helen,
You bring up some interesting points. I find myself valuing other accents in people, but not Southern ones. I think when I was very young I thought all the people around me were stupid. (I still think some of those people are, but I realize now it isn't because of their geographic location) That is why I decided to homogenize my speach. It was a way for me to disassociate myself from them.
I usually find other accents quite charming, and can understand why one might feel that way toward Southerners. I certainly wouldn't like to see the wonderful variants of speech lost to media.
Your comic book reference reminds me of something I once heard. Most American television is written to a 6th grade intelegence level. I suppose that might be why I almost never watch television other than the discovery channel or other similar channels.
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Well, here I am, representative of John Q. Public. I like television. I take it for exactly what it is – entertainment and information. I know a lot of it is pap but I do enjoy what I watch. I learn things when I watch documentaries or the Learning channel and I laugh at some sit-coms – some really good sit-coms can bring tears of laughter to my eyes. And please don’t say, “you could be reading a good book, or studying something”. I do that too. I read all the time. I can have two or three books running at a time, plus National Geo and the daily Gazette. Bettering yourself and entertaining yourself are not mutually exclusive.
It really riles me when people look down on this medium. In everything, you have to filter out the unnecessary (or the bad) and stick with what works for you.
During our ice storm two years ago we were quite happy to have the television giving us an update as to how each region was doing, who needed help, and where we could do our part to help. Some people were completely isolated and their relatives had to rely on the television to tell them that help had been dispatched to the region and that their relatives were going to be all right.
When the first men landed on the moon, I saw it on television. When my country remained intact after our last vote on separation in Québec, I saw that on television too, and I cried tears of joy.
Don’t put something down just because some of it is bad. You might miss out on all the good parts.
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The complete quote which Helen paraphrases is from "Time Enough for Love":
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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You might miss out on all the good parts
Yes, indeed. I neither implied nor meant a criticism of the medium. My interest is in language.
The points already made are good, I think, and express a creative tension in the world. On the one hand, exposure to the RP of a given medium or society may tend to have a flattening, universalising effect. But on the other it can also cause reflection, in those able to reflect, with benefit to differenciation as well as widened sympathy and understanding.
By the way, my kids use dagnabbit and also consarndit on a regular yet also tongue in cheek basis. They got it from Grandpa in The Simpsons, so I particularly enjoyed learning that this was quoting, in typically knowing style, from the much earlier programme The Hillbillies! This is another aspect of the re-cycling (ARGH!!!!) of language that the medium seems to facilitate.
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. I find myself valuing other accents in people, but not Southern ones. I think when I was very young I thought all the people around me were stupid.
xara, I've thinking about these two posts of yours for a
while. I think possibly part of your prejudice is due, in fact, to the thread topic: television. Again and again, the character who has been designated as the stupid one will be portrayed as having a Southern accent, even when no one else in the show does. This rankles me. I have something of a Southern accent myself. I am not especially proud of it, but certainly not ashamed of it, either. I hope that if we ever meet, you will not think I am stupid.
I happen to love Tennessee accents. They remind me
of wonderful times among people who thought I was precious, and who loved me no matter what.
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I've thinking about these two posts of yours for a while.
I've been thinking about those posts ever since I posted them too. I know they came off sounding fairly prejudice. That was not at all what I intended to do, but it's what I did none the less. That bothers me quite a bit.
I think I do a fair job of eliminating prejudice from my views except for "my own people." Again, this is not to say that I think Southerners are stupid. I agree that television may have had something to do with this problem.
Unfortunately, though, I really believe that the people *SOME OF THE PEOPLE* in my home town were not stupid, but ignorant. When we were in kindergarten, my mom helped out the teacher with some field trips. We went to the next town over to go to a mall because lots of the kids had never been 10 miles from home. That's just how isolated the place was. (I don't think it's that bad anymore) When I happened not to think as the people of the town had done for the past 50 years, I got a lot of bullying. That's where my prejudices came from, and I don't think that way anymore. It's just a childhood predilection that I can't quite get rid of.
I've certainly had to deal with plenty of Southern sounding individuals in school and at work. I certainly don't think they are unintelligent because of their speech. I even affect that accent (in certain cases) when the people I am talking with have it, because it makes them feel more comfortable, and it doesn't make any difference to me anymore. I apologize for the rant. I just felt I needed to defend myself. I seem to have come off as some sort of self-hating mongre in these past few posts. I don't know if I've done any better with this one but I hope so.
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some sort of self-hating mongre in these past few postsDuring periods of self-questioning, every self-respecting being realizes that there are moments of self-hating in one's life 
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When I happened not to think as the people of the town had done for the past 50 years, I got a lot of bullying.
Ah--you, too, have been a victim of the "(S)He's not like us--let's get 'im" way of thinking. I really wonder what makes us that way, sometimes. I also wonder how many
'would-have-been-greats' have been stifled, due to that kind of repression.
But, thank you for your clarification; that helped. One of the things I am working on learning as I age is that
people of all kinds have real value. I confess, and this is not at all to my credit, that I have always tended to de-value people who are unintelligent. But, as I go through my life, I have been shown that there are MANY other valuable contributions, that I would be very much worse off without. I'll give a couple of examples. I know of a man and wife, neither of whom is smart at all in the academic sense, and there is an alcohol problem, to boot.
But as I have observed over the years, I realize that if there is ANYTHING that needs to be done, they are there.
Furthermore, they are the first to give money to a worthy cause, even though their income is so low they were in danger of losing their house. They say "ain't" and "he don't", but they are good people. One of my dearest friends here is also not the brightest person in the world,
but this lady has an instinct about people like you wouldn't believe. She is always aware of undercurrents in a relationship, and their significance. And I, with all my professional training in these matters, am clueless (at times).
So, my dear, perhaps as you gain experience, too, you will
learn to appreciate what is good about the people you came from. I'm betting on it.
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>To what extent, and in what ways, do you think exposure to TV has altered perception and use of language? Does this vary from country to country? I'm glad that you came back to his topic Mav. Sometime ago I asked a question about the difference between accents coast to coast in Canada and Australia. http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=5853&Search=true&Forum=All_Forums&Words=radio&Match=Entire Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allpostsbel told us: "Well, in Canada there is not much difference in the way people from Vancouver or Toronto sound. Both have a majority of English speaking inhabitants, both are business hubs." Marty told us: "I'd be hard-pressed to pick any difference in accent between people from any Australian cities." Yet the distances between these cities are enormous. To travel the same distance in Europe would give rise not just to a change in accents along the route but marked changes in the languages spoken. The difference must be that both these countries experienced their main growth in population when mass communication (via radio and cinema, in the first instance) was already established. The impact must have increased once television entered daily life. In England, for example, accents had been established in days of much greater isolation, when travelling a short distance was time consuming. Rhubarb Commando tells us of changes in dialect over very small distances. In the early days of radio the BBC said that it was not able to broadcast the stonger regional accents as people from other areas would not understand them. I have listened to excerpts which were not just hard to understand, they were completely unintelligible. With the growth of television in the English speaking world we have all been exposed to wide range of accents from all over the world and this cannot fail to have had an impact on our pronunciation, even without the minor "fashion" changes which occur due to the popularity of programmes like "Neighbours" in the late eighties and "The Simpsons" in the nineties. Even the attempt at emulating an accent must have an impact. As a child I remember that everyone could "do" John Wayne and later Marlon Brando. So I think that television has accelerated change in language, rather than being starting the process of change.
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I absolutely agree, and not just southern accents, ethnic ones too, Poles, Italian and the Irish (that subtle anti catholic thing) are often uses as a short hand for dumb. It has become political incorrect to use blacks, but there is a long history of that, too.
And its not just here in the tv capital of the world-- Monty python (which I loved!) used "Irish" to equal stupid--as did Fauwlty Towers---remember O'Rielly? Do you think maybe he was Irish? (stupid, lazy and incompetent all rolled up into a name!)
and if you have Scotsman about, sure but he is canny--so when you want a show with a quick witted, mechanical inclined hero, you got McGeiver!
Yes TV has some wonder moments, but it has been miss used!
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The complete quote which Helen paraphrases is from "Time Enough for Love"
Reading that list has left me rather depressed – I seem to have only the challenges of bone-doctoring left before making my gallant last stand!
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Helen, have to pull you up on the Monty P and Fawlty Towers points! Both were hardly discriminating against minorities in their targets, and often the main targets were the RP speakers. "Upper Class Twit of the Year" is an example from Monty P that immediately springs to mind; and Basil Fawlty himself was the main fool in Fawlty Towers. Definitely an Englishman! It's extremely unlikely you'd see Rab C.Nesbitt over your side of the pond, but in that you have a Scot taking the mickey out of very local Scottish ways and speech in a way that not only the Scots find amusing. It's been shown on BBC2 at peak time. Then there was "Spitting Image", which had some excellent vicious satirical moments and, again, targeted the established order if anything more than minorities. I suppose I'm playing down the "mis-use" and playing up the "freedom of expression" side of TV. It ain't all bad! 
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re-cycling
Yeah, The Simpsons! One of the best shows currently on TV, as far as I'm concerned. And my sprats like it too (although I'm a little wary of Itchy and Scratchy, even if we do all love Tom and Jerry)...
But what does"consarndit" mean, mav? Is this a YART?
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Just occurs to me that, looking to the not-so-distant future, interactive TV (pick your own programmes) could make a huge difference. Will people pick programmes in their own dialect(s) or a preferred middle dialect? Bit of a crossover to "English as a Global Language" here, I suppose. And then you have Web access for all through TV.... How much could that change the world? Search me, guv. 
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The talk of late regarding accents has stuck to the negative aspects of various regional aspects. But let us not forget that equally as untrue can be the "quasi-positive" lustful accents attributed to numerous European English-speakers.
Years ago, I lived in a mountain resort town where the ski lodge only hired attractive young ladies with European accents to work the front desk, the chocolatier shop, and to hand out towels at the sauna and pool. The Standard-English speakers were consigned to work the laundry rooms and street sweepers.
Again, it surely is the influence of the media that has portrayed the European accent as sexy. I expect the lack of literal interface and exposure to European English speakers casts an even higher probablity on TV being the culprit.
Brandon
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talk of late regarding accents
Two out of ten, class! Language does not reside in the accent alone, or even mainly. What other influences has TV had so far - and in the context of shona's interesting spin about interactive choices in the future imperfect?
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Back to something Xara said on page 1 >We went to the next town over to go to a mall because lots of the kids had never been 10 miles from home.<
It sad isn't it? but don't think it is just because the town was isolated. I live inside the NYC limits, but at the very edge.. (NYC covers alot of geography!) I always went "downtown", and my kids always came to center city for theater and museums. by the time she was 16, my daughter felt very comfortable heading to Manhattan by herself, (15 miles, what about 25 kilometers) but she had school friends who had never been to Manhattan. They had never left Long Island, except for a school trip to Pennsylvania!
I find it hard to understand such behaviour. I have wanderlust, and i think about selling my house, quitting my job, and just heading off to where ever the road takes me! (and then I shudder, and think--How Could You!) one day wanderlust will win. I don't think there is anyplace better, but many places are different.
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No-one ever said accent was the only issue in the growth of television but I suppose that it brought ordinary people into public view in a way that the cinema never did (only those strangely cheerful wartime newsreels).
Its funny how people seem willing to do (almost) anything to appear on television. We probably learnt more about the kind of words real people use and how they speak from "vox pop" television than any other form of media. Television drama (and other drama in its wake) became able to be more naturalistic as people became accustomed to seeing ordinary people on television.
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...ordinary people on televisionTrue. I think there are also pressures the other way too, though. For example, all news reporting is driven by a crude form of thesis and antithesis (without really deriving more than a cursory synthesis). This simplified application of classical forms must surely have an effect on the way people speak and think: if Bert says "Black" then Michelle starts thinking "White" rather than questioning if it shouldn't be grey (or even gray  ). People are invited to drive for an illusory 'bottom line', rather than exploring carefully. I am fairly sure this has also had a significant impact on a facet of speech which was remarked on a while back by shanks: the tendency to abbreviate, and sometimes speak in truncated or ellided sentence fragments.
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>crude form of thesis and antithesis
I am finding this more and more irritating in the press to these days. Whatever anyone says, no matter how reasonable, someone who disagrees has to be dredged up to express an opinion in opposition. We are all aware of "sound bite poilitics", no thought worth expressing is allowed to take more than the time the average viewer takes to find the remote control. I'm sure that this has an impact on language. (It's still hard to see Bore and Gush making this formula work, I'm not suprised that people are staying away from voting in droves)
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>people are staying away from voting in droves I have to pass along the following, slightly bowlderized, which I received in yesterday's email: > > Voter Alert!!! > > > > Due to an anticipated voter turn out much larger than > > originally expected, the polling facilities may not be > > able to handle the load all at once. > > > > Therefore, ______ and Independents are requested > > to vote on Tuesday, November 7, and ______ on > > Wednesday, November 8. > > > > Please pass this message along and help us to make sure > > that nobody gets left out. > > > > 2000 Presidential Election Commission my immediate thought was "geez, this sort of thing could get the election results thrown out if it was widely disseminated!" at the very least it would give the pol-lawyers something to do in the aftermath.
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people are staying away from voting in drovesNow, wait a minute.. can you stay away from anything in droves?? How could you mentally picture such a state of affairs? would you assemble in droves just to stay away ?
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would you assemble in droves just to stay away?Sure! This morning, in fact: I just drove away! 
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people are staying away from voting in drovesI wish some of those bush fans could have stayed away in droves. how can self respecting country elect a man to be president who can say such things as these:  http://slate.msn.com/Features/bushisms/bushisms.aspmaybe i should start looking to move to canada
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"The only thing I know about Slovakia is what I learned first-hand from your foreign minister, who came to Texas."—To a Slovak journalist as quoted by Knight Ridder News Service, June 22, 1999. Bush's meeting was with Janez Drnovsek, the prime minister of Slovenia.
Well I'd think carefully about moving to Slovenia!
I think you are safe here:
"It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is important. It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet."—Arlington Heights, Ill., Oct. 24, 2000
and as we have already noted:
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."—Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000
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Bushisms.. a real treasure trove!
He did say
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."—Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000
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Bushisms.. a real treasure trove!And that is another important influence of TV - we all get to hear first-hand what rubbish someone spouts, rather than the smoothed-out version that printed reproduction would tend to entail. If you doubt the difference, try transcribing a telephone call one day by use of a dictation machine...
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I thoroughly enjoy listening (and critiquing) the sound bytes we are flooded with through the media. Certain people do tend to have more slips, mispronunciations, malapropisms, spoonerisms, etc.
But as my wife and I were discussing it, we realized that if anyone recorded 6 hours of our speech per day, the frequent but quickly glossed over mistakes we make would make us the laughing stock of the nation. The horrible microphone forever records the slips that we might have otherwise forgotten about four seconds after it occurred.
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I wish some of those bush fans could have stayed away in droves. how can self respecting country elect a man to be president who can say such things as these:
Well, I wasn't planning on going into politics and maybe I shouldn't because I can't even vote yet, but I feel obligated to defend against these slanders. The simple fact is that Bush is not stupid. He went to Harvard and Yale. He may have decided to extend his youth into his college years and not do well, but he had to get accepted didn't he? And about his mispronunciations: perhaps he has a slight stutter. I know one person in particular who stutters but is very eloquent in writing. I remind you that light is faster than sound.
Tell me, why would Bush, as the governor of Texas, have any reason to know who the prime minister of Pakistan is? He was elected (with 70% of the vote for his second term, might I add) to deal with state affairs, not foreign ones. He had good relations with the president of mexico, which is all that matters for him. Also, Bush would bring Cheney and Colin Powell to the White House, his foreign policy would not be lacking. We elect a group of people rather than one man.
God save Florida from choosing a lying pompous scum-bag who can't even win his own "home" state. Al Gore may not have invented the Internet, but Clinton/Gore had [u]nothing[/u] to do with the economy.
Excuse me for any anger this may have caused, but politics is one of my strong interests. Appropriately, I will be in Washington, DC on a senior class trip for the next three days.
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>The simple fact is that Bush is not stupid. He went to Harvard and Yale. He may have decided to extend his youth into his college years and not do well, but he had to get accepted didn't he?
Prince Charles went to Gordonstone and Cambridge but that doesn't make him clever. He had to get accepted but it's a bit tricky to turn down the Queen's son. I don't suppose Chelsea Clinton had to spend too much time trawling round second rate universities to get a place.
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>if anyone recorded 6 hours of our speech per day
True indeed. I might be encouraged to do a little better if I were spending sixty million dollars (as I believe some Senators, including Hilary Clinton, did) on my campaign, let alone the order of 0000s that is spent on a Presidential campaign.
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I enjoyed your post, Jazz, nice to hear from the other side. If I may make so bold, what sometimes perturbs non-US citzens, is the degree to which well-educated, intelligent, and politicaly active Americans can be very insular in their outlook. Like it or not, the US pretty much calls the shots on the world stage, which means that the rest of the world tends to hope that the most visible face of US foreign policy will have some awareness that there is a world outside North America, however irrelevant that fact seems to most US citizens most of the time. I agree that having a skilled team of advisors will no doubt help, but it is the perception, not so much of ignorance, as of indifference ("I don't know, but so what?") that seems to cause most concern among many outside the US. To give an amusing example: When GW's Dad was CinC, he visited Australia during a time of tension between those two countries over trade in beef. As his motorcade sped through Sydney streets, past crowds of protesters, Mr Bush gave what he thought was the "V for Victory" or "Peace" gesture. Unfortunately, none of his advisors had told him that he was "giving them the fingers" in Australian usage. It was an amusing illustration of how cultural misconceptions can exacerbate difficult situations, and insularity does not help lessen the likelihood of such incidents.
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>Also, Bush would bring Cheney and Colin Powell to the White House, his foreign policy would not be lacking. We elect a group of people rather than one man.One would hope that a US President would have a reasonable grasp of all subjects that the government administration has to deal with. If, instead, the President is happy to delegate all knowledge to specialists within his team, the only job left for him is to front the TV cameras and smile. In which case a B-grade movie actor could probably do the job.
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>In which case a B-grade movie actor could probably do the job.
I think you need a reality check Marty - quite a preposterous statement!
Mind you, with Glenda Jackson in parliament we could even get an "A" grade actor as our Prime Minister!
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197
member
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member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197 |
Tell me, why would Bush, as the governor of Texas, have any reason to know who the prime minister of Pakistan is? Jazz, I would like to point something out. Perhaps the governor of Texas has no need for such things. I certainly can't tell you who most of the world leaders are, but I'm not running for president. We're not having an election for Governor of Texas here, we're talking about the President of the United States!!!!! This man will be more than just a leader of our country. He will be making decisions that affect world politics and economics for the next four years at least. Now do we want a man to go to some international peace talk in the Middle East without knowing who the people he's going to be talking to are? I heard him say once about someone who had just resigned (again, I don't remember the name or the exact situation, but it's not me running for president..) something to the effect of 'Good, that's one less difficult name for me to remember.' That's not really an attitude that I want one of the strongest leaders of the free world to propagate. As to his intelligence, I didn't exactly say he was stupid. (or if I did, I did so out of frustration and anger. if i said any such thing, i apologize) He may be highly intelligent. I believe Napoleon was a genius but I don't want him running my country. And I certainly know that I used no such term as a lying pompous scum-bag. Tennessee, for your information, is a fairly conservative state. It surprises me not in the least that Bush won that state. (may I remind you that I spent the first 18 years of my life in Tennessee) By chance, Gore came from there, but I wouldn't necessarily call him indicative of the native population, at least of the half of the state that I am most familiar with.
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
...I had done that law degree my parents urged on me - I could help fight that lawsuit about the wonky ballot papers, that, some claim, made them vote for Buchanan instead of Gore! For Jazzo - here's a url (so as to keep the mess off this board), that kind of outlines my position on this (as an interested observer, you understand). And, no - I'm afraid I don't really agree with your position (though when I was 18, I might have done - ohmigod, I'm turning into my parents!!!) http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb541827&MyNum=973674111&P=Yes&TL=973576651
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
A few points:
When GW is president he will be well versed in world politics, but when he was initially asked about the names of foreign leaders he was still mainly concentrating on being governor. Also, Andrew Jackson is considered one of our better presidents, and no one says that he was brilliant. Reagan was an actor and probably the best president we've ever had on foreign policy.
When GW Bush started college, his dad wasn't serving in any public office.
The ballot used in Palm Beach county was published in the newspapers ahead of time for everyone to review. Anyone that wanted to vote could have easily found out how the ballot should be filled out. If you're too stupid to figure that ballot out, then you obviously don't care enough about the election and shouldn't be voting.
When Republicans try to get some information on the opponent the media is all over it, but when the Democrats buy votes no one cares.
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347 |
Here's a simple election that everyone should be able to understand. A great deal of care has gone into the design of the cards. Punch out a chad to indicate your preference:
1. Terminate the current line of discussion on this thread
2. Terminate the current line of discussion on this thread
(Informal votes will be evenly distributed between choices 1 and 2).
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
Punch out a chad to indicate your preference:I'm sorry, but I don't any know any, let alone dislike them sufficiently to follow your suggestion!
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
Sorry, I live in one of the most conservative areas of the nation. 700 WLW is very conservative now.
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