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#8781 - 10/28/00 09:19 AM Re: Intellectuals
RhubarbCommando Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
When someone asked recently about a latin babel fish, I passed on some links to Latin translation sites that were provided by my good friend who got a first in Classics. I cannot remember which Fred they were in, but they're still hanging about there. if you don't mind searching.


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#8782 - 10/28/00 09:59 PM Re: Intellectuals
belMarduk Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/28/00
Posts: 2891
Ah, but the faith in mankind, Max dear. You cannot truly serve mankind if you do not have faith in it. Faith that it is ultimately good, faith that it will stand behind you in your duty and faith that, it too, will defend you in your time of need.




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#8783 - 10/28/00 10:18 PM Re: Intellectuals
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
Ah, but the faith in mankind, Max dear. You cannot truly serve mankind if you do not have faith in it.

True, but I have met atheists who reject outright the concept of "faith", even of "belief" - one man I discussed this with got quite heated in his assertion that he did not "believe" anything.


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#8784 - 10/28/00 11:46 PM Re: Intellectuals
Jackie Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
his assertion that he did not "believe" anything

Max, am I assuming correctly that you and this gentleman meant religious faith? Faith/belief can refer to other things. Some people have faith in the essential goodness of human beings. Some believe that we are inherently "bad".
I have never seen a single one of you other linguaphiles
(take note, shanks!), but I have faith that you are real!


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#8785 - 10/29/00 12:59 AM Re: Intellectuals
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
Max, am I assuming correctly that you and this gentleman meant religious faith?

Although the discussion had started that way, it had broadened to include a definition of "faith" and "belief" - he said that he did not "believe" anything - he knew things. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance. It was a somewhat simplistic extension of the ideas expressed on this page: http://hometown.aol.com/dandclxvi/belief.htm


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#8786 - 10/29/00 03:24 AM Re: belief
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1981
>He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance

This seems to be an untenable proposition. Even without looking at the world of religious faith we have to make some decisions on the basis of evidence and probability. These tend to work well for large numbers but not for individual cases.

I've been working on medico-legal cases recently and expert witnesses are often asked to predict the likely future outcome of a disease in an individual. Although there is scientific evidence on the course of diseases it is constantly being updated and sometimes disagrees with the point of view that went before (BSE/CJD/HIV all spring to mind). All a clinician can be expected to do is to keep reasonably up to date with current evidence, combine it with their own clinical experience and make a clinical judgement. When asked to predict the course of a disease in an individual they are only able to express their own belief in what will happen. A doctor doesn't know if a patients arthritis will be worse in ten years time they can only say what they believe to be the most likely outcome. The court is then presented with various opinions and is left with a decision of which expert to believe.

Perhaps this is what has stoked public anger and litigiousness. Once it was possible for people to believe in the clergy, clerics, doctors, lawyers, engineers. These days the press love to focus on any instance of a professional being caught out - a priest in a dubious relationship, a doctors who makes a mistake, an engineer who does not stick to safety procedures.


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#8787 - 10/29/00 03:32 AM Re: belief
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance

This seems to be an untenable proposition. Even without looking at the world of religious faith we have to make some decisions on the basis of evidence and probability.

My sentiments exactly. Just because words like belief and faith are most widely used in a religious, or at least spiritual, context, does not mean that they are limited to such uses. I believe that Arsenal is capable of winning the English Premier League, and I try to have faith that they will.


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#8788 - 10/29/00 05:49 AM Re: Intellectuals
Bridget Offline
addict

Registered: 06/27/00
Posts: 444
Loc: Sydney Australia
>he said that he did not "believe" anything - he knew things. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He [bold] believed [/bold] that there is only knowledge or ignorance.<

Max, I am sure this is a mere slip of the keyboard, but do not the words of your above post contain a huge internal inconsistency?


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#8789 - 10/29/00 07:59 AM Re: Intellectuals
Jackie Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Bridget--nice catch, my dear! Kudos.

Max--Well, this fellow can be admired for sticking to his
principles right or wrong, but I must say there are some
holes in his logic, acc'g to what he put in the site you
gave. For ex., if God wants witches to die, it doesn't
follow that He wants a certain person to murder them!

But--and this made me absolutely hysterical, half wanting to
shriek with laughter at the incredible timing of this find, and the other half wanting to groan over this gentleman's
black-or-white only outlook--(EEP! shanks, this is definitely one of those convoluted sentences I posted about!). Sorry--I'll start anew.

I went to the site, read it, then clicked "BACK" at the bottom of his page, and here is what I found:
"Man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle.




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#8790 - 10/29/00 01:22 PM Re: Intellectuals
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409
he said that he did not "believe" anything - he knew things. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He [bold] believed [/bold] that there is only knowledge or ignorance

I noticeed the inconsistency as I typed it, but to me the opinion he stated was a belief. To him, he "knew" there was only knowledge or ignorance, but I reported his viewpoint from my own perspective, partly because find it difficult to grasp that someone can have no belief in anything. I should have been more careful, and written something like, "in his opinion", but even though I noticed the error when I read the first reply, I decided to let the inconsistency go uncorrected because it summed up my opinion of his viewpoint.


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