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#8741 10/23/00 08:13 AM
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In 1953, the movie "Mogambo" was released to appreciative audiences. From what is the title derived? Is it a word in an African language? Any ideas?


#8742 10/23/00 10:30 AM
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I couldn't find anything in this site that told what you are asking, but you may want to look anyway:

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0046085


I have this vague idea that Mogambo was the name of the river, or the area.


#8743 10/23/00 11:16 AM
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Well, Father Steve, I can't help with the derivation of Mogambo but I can you tell you more than you may want to know about the movie.

It was originally a play by Wilson Collison, "Red Dust", set in a Saigon rubber plantation and filmed under that title in 1932 by Victor Fleming with Clark Gable and Jean Harlow.

In 1953 the original scriptwriter, John Lee Mahin, changed the location to the African veldt where it was filmed by John Ford starring, again, Clark Gable with Ava Gardner and Grace Kelly. The story was also filmed as "Congo Maisie" in 1940.

And the plot? -- take your pick:

The headquarters of a Kenyan white hunter is invaded by an American showgirl and a British archaeologist and his wife, and they all go off on a gorilla hunt. [Halliwell]

The lure of the jungle and romance get a sizzling workout in Mogambo and it's a socko package of entertainment, crammed with sexy two-fisted adventure. [Variety]

Interestingly, it was released without a music score, just 'jungle sounds and native rhythms".


#8744 10/23/00 08:17 PM
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If "the Mogambo" is a river in Africa, it has escaped the notice of the usual web-based indexes.


#8745 10/23/00 09:00 PM
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there seems to be a region in Somalia referred to as Mogambo...


#8746 10/23/00 09:22 PM
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Can’t find it in my Rand McNally. I’ll send off a ? to National Geographic to see if they come up with anything.

We should also consider that it might just be a figment of the writer's imagination....



#8747 10/24/00 07:15 AM
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I found an outfit called Mogambo Tours in Lanseria, South Africa, and wrote to them to ask how they got their name. A kind fellow named Eric YVER de la BRUCHOLLERIE wrote back to say: "In 1996, we took over a company called AIR MOGAMBO and renamed it as MOGAMBO TOURS. I believe the previous owner did derive the name from the 1953 movie starring Eva Gardner." Rats! Another dead end street.






#8748 10/24/00 10:51 AM
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I was wondering if "mogambo" was a mild corruption of something else, so I tried "mugambo".

Now, apparently ntanira na mugambo means "circumcision through words"
http://fgm.org/chelala.html
- which is clearly of no relevance to us at all.

But then there's:
http://www.kalinlures.com/mogambo.htm
Brrrrr!



#8749 10/24/00 05:58 PM
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The latter of these websites -- the one about "lures" -- is unwilling to open. Was there a character missing or out of place?


#8750 10/24/00 09:09 PM
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Was there a character missing or out of place?

Nope, there were three characters missing - all of them "w"! Oops.

Well spotted, Pa. Sorted now.


#8751 10/24/00 10:13 PM
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GOT IT!

Mogambo is Swahili for "big gorilla". (And, wouldn't you know, I plugged it into a web dictionary for Swahili and it came up no match!!) Ok, here's how I got this info.--

I called our library's trusty Just Ask line. This is what the lady told me. I daren't take the time to go here myself, so I hope I got this right.
Go to http://www.imdb.com. Type in the title of the movie. Go to external links miscellaneous, then classic movies. 'Fraid she lost me after that, but I'm sure you can figure it out.


#8752 10/25/00 08:10 AM
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But then there's:
http://www.kalinlures.com/mogambo.htm
Brrrrr!


Enough to put you off your grub, Eh?



#8753 10/25/00 12:38 PM
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Enough to put you off your grub, Eh?

Burble! Splutter splutter, slap slap!
(these are highly appreciative fish noises)




#8754 10/25/00 01:01 PM
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Well done, Jackie! Does tsuwm work for your library's Just Ask line, then?

Here's the place you end up:
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Studio/8255/filmog/film3.html
Mind you, all it says is exactly the same as Jackie's second sentence.

Could this be one of those cases where the word doesn't relate exclusively to one situation?
e.g:
Somebody who speaks Swahili sees a big gorilla coming out of the bushes and screams "Mogambo!!!" - everybody who understands Swahili runs away.

A bit further into the jungle, the group sights the grisly remains of a cannibal banquet. "Mogambo!!!" says one Swahili speaker to another, and they make themselves scarce. The sole remaining white man assumes that a big gorilla was responsible for the bloody mess around, and decides he'd better shoot the mogambo when he next gets the chance. And anyway, there's that little space on his mantelpiece, and normal ashtrays are so boring...



#8755 10/25/00 01:20 PM
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By your theory, then, 'Mogambo' might just mean "Let's get the f@$% out of here!"


#8756 10/25/00 02:13 PM
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Reaching far back into the custard of my memory, I recall a book by (I think) R.M.Ballantyne, that fine writer of spiffing yarns, called The Gorilla Hunters which employed the same characters who had appeared in The Coral Island. In this yarn, which upheld all of the undoubted virtues of The British Empire, Gorillas were referred to, familiarly, as "puggies."
Any ideas where this word could have come from?


#8757 10/25/00 07:23 PM
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Well done, Jackie! Does tsuwm work for your library's Just Ask line, then?

Thank you, dear! I kind of doubt that he does--it's pretty
long distance to the winterlands. 'Sides, it seems that he has several thousand web sites memorized--he IS a just-ask
line! 'Ceptin' he always tells you to "look it up', grumble, mumble...
I don't really mind looking it up--IF I know where to look!


#8758 10/25/00 07:33 PM
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>Ceptin' he always tells you to "look it up', grumble, mumble... IF I know where to look!

grumble, mumble indeed. let the record show that I have posted more links than a dozen discalced nuns.
::hmmmph::


#8759 10/25/00 07:44 PM
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grumble, mumble indeed. let the record show that I have posted more links than a dozen discalced nuns.
::hmmmph::


Ok, Mr. Grumble, so I'm lazy! But what does being discalced have to do with posting links, she said with the
distinct feeling of walking straight into a trap?




#8760 10/26/00 06:26 AM
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I cannot find any Swahili word meaning gorilla. I did learn that the Swahili word for monkey is tumbili or tumbiri or kima, and the word for baboon is nyani (and for "big" baboon nyani mkubwa) and the word for Colobus monkey is mbega, and the word for chimp is sokwe, and the word for small black monkey is ngedere ... none of which has jack squat to do with gorillas or mogambo. The time spent was justified entirely by learning that "Wapi choo?" in Swahili means "Where is the bathroom?" Research continues as the hope of success dwindles.




#8761 10/26/00 01:32 PM
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jack squat to do with gorillas

I rest my case.

"Mogambo" = "Let's get the hell out of here!"
(this translation for under 18s)


#8762 10/26/00 01:46 PM
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I hope you'll credit your co-translator?


#8763 10/26/00 06:29 PM
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... none of which has jack squat to do with gorillas or mogambo.

Ain't no one never told ya nothin' about it being wrong for to be using double negatives?


#8764 10/26/00 07:50 PM
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Max says it is "wrong for to be using double negatives."

One assumes this a critique of the construction "jack squat." One assumes that his objection is that "jack" has the same meaning as squat, permitting one to say "He don't know jack" and "He don't know squat" without altering the meaning of either. Not so, learned one. The clause "You don't know jack" is a shortening of "You don't know jack shit" where the last word is omitted for decency's sake. Squat is a colloquial verb meaning "to defecate" and a noun meaning "defecation." Thus, the construction "jack squat" restores the entirety of the clause, using a synonym in the last position. Eh?





#8765 10/26/00 07:54 PM
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Oh how good it is to be amongst true intellectuals!


#8766 10/26/00 08:10 PM
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Agreed. The recent rise in the number of false intellectuals is a cause for great concern.


#8767 10/26/00 08:10 PM
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tsuwm>more links than a dozen discalced nuns.
jackie>what does being discalced have to do with posting links, she said with the
distinct feeling of walking straight into a trap?

exactly nothing. and don't go walking discalced near any traps.

---
how many posts would Emily Post post
if Emily Post could post posts?!


#8768 10/26/00 08:14 PM
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Actually it was the use of "none of which" that prompted my jocular correction. I understood the phrase "Jack squat", and greatly appreciated the bowdlerisation. Since it seems that "Jack squat" means basically "nothing" I read the line to say "none of which has nothing to do with ..." I am of course rushing in where angels fear to tread, as my grasp of grammar could most flatteringly be called rudimentary. If I am as mistaken as I expect to be, your occupation, and my Mickey heritage would seem to make mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa doubly apt.


#8769 10/26/00 11:28 PM
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The recent rise in the number of false intellectuals

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!






#8770 10/27/00 03:37 AM
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Misereatur vestri omnipotens Deus, et dimissis peccatis, perducat vos ad vitam aeternam. Amen.


#8771 10/27/00 06:09 AM
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>Agreed. The recent rise in the number of false intellectuals is a cause for great concern.

Which gives the lie to the idea that American's can't do irony!


#8772 10/27/00 08:05 AM
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Dear Tsuwm,
A question, for once: What would you call a person who walks through a trap without even noticing?



#8773 10/27/00 12:00 PM
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a person who walks through a trap...

A Trappist. Or should that be a Jesuit...?


#8774 10/27/00 12:27 PM
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What would you call a person who walks through a trap without even noticing?

If he came out unscathed: lucky.
In my case: stupid.



#8775 10/27/00 02:19 PM
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>A question, for once: What would you call a person who walks through a trap without even noticing?

An extrapolator???



TEd
#8776 10/27/00 02:28 PM
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>What would you call a person who walks through a trap without even noticing?

contrapuntal
-ron obvious


#8777 10/27/00 04:02 PM
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ad vitam aeternam

Father, I'm impressed ! Does this mean that you really are as one with your nom de plume? Or just that you have a good memory and/or good reference books to hand?



#8778 10/27/00 06:13 PM
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please, could you provide a link to good translation software, or a translation for those of use who have forgotten the little latin we learned..

aside from common phrases, (which thankful good dictionaries include) the only latin i know is in responce to
"Gloria in Excelsious Deo" Et in terra pos... and even then i can only sing it!


#8779 10/28/00 04:00 AM
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You are one up on me of Troy. The only Latin I know is mea culpa, which my Granny (who is quite religious) says in some sort of prayer at Christmas (or maybe it's Easter). We were never taught Latin in school.

I'd be interested in a link also. It seems a shame to only know a phrase that means I am guilty (which I am not, it's not me, you can't prove anything, I wasn't even there )


#8780 10/28/00 07:02 AM
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The only Latin I know is mea culpa,

I'm about the same, although one Latin phrase that really stuck was the motto of the Order of St. John: "pro fide, pro utilitate hominem", which we cadets were taught as "for the faith, for the service of mankind." What always struck me as ironic is that one of my corp's chief instructors was devoutly, passionately, atheist in philosophy. I wish I had asked which "fide" she was serving.


#8781 10/28/00 01:19 PM
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When someone asked recently about a latin babel fish, I passed on some links to Latin translation sites that were provided by my good friend who got a first in Classics. I cannot remember which Fred they were in, but they're still hanging about there. if you don't mind searching.


#8782 10/29/00 01:59 AM
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Ah, but the faith in mankind, Max dear. You cannot truly serve mankind if you do not have faith in it. Faith that it is ultimately good, faith that it will stand behind you in your duty and faith that, it too, will defend you in your time of need.




#8783 10/29/00 02:18 AM
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Ah, but the faith in mankind, Max dear. You cannot truly serve mankind if you do not have faith in it.

True, but I have met atheists who reject outright the concept of "faith", even of "belief" - one man I discussed this with got quite heated in his assertion that he did not "believe" anything.


#8784 10/29/00 03:46 AM
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his assertion that he did not "believe" anything

Max, am I assuming correctly that you and this gentleman meant religious faith? Faith/belief can refer to other things. Some people have faith in the essential goodness of human beings. Some believe that we are inherently "bad".
I have never seen a single one of you other linguaphiles
(take note, shanks!), but I have faith that you are real!


#8785 10/29/00 04:59 AM
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Max, am I assuming correctly that you and this gentleman meant religious faith?

Although the discussion had started that way, it had broadened to include a definition of "faith" and "belief" - he said that he did not "believe" anything - he knew things. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance. It was a somewhat simplistic extension of the ideas expressed on this page: http://hometown.aol.com/dandclxvi/belief.htm


#8786 10/29/00 08:24 AM
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>He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance

This seems to be an untenable proposition. Even without looking at the world of religious faith we have to make some decisions on the basis of evidence and probability. These tend to work well for large numbers but not for individual cases.

I've been working on medico-legal cases recently and expert witnesses are often asked to predict the likely future outcome of a disease in an individual. Although there is scientific evidence on the course of diseases it is constantly being updated and sometimes disagrees with the point of view that went before (BSE/CJD/HIV all spring to mind). All a clinician can be expected to do is to keep reasonably up to date with current evidence, combine it with their own clinical experience and make a clinical judgement. When asked to predict the course of a disease in an individual they are only able to express their own belief in what will happen. A doctor doesn't know if a patients arthritis will be worse in ten years time they can only say what they believe to be the most likely outcome. The court is then presented with various opinions and is left with a decision of which expert to believe.

Perhaps this is what has stoked public anger and litigiousness. Once it was possible for people to believe in the clergy, clerics, doctors, lawyers, engineers. These days the press love to focus on any instance of a professional being caught out - a priest in a dubious relationship, a doctors who makes a mistake, an engineer who does not stick to safety procedures.


#8787 10/29/00 08:32 AM
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He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance

This seems to be an untenable proposition. Even without looking at the world of religious faith we have to make some decisions on the basis of evidence and probability.

My sentiments exactly. Just because words like belief and faith are most widely used in a religious, or at least spiritual, context, does not mean that they are limited to such uses. I believe that Arsenal is capable of winning the English Premier League, and I try to have faith that they will.


#8788 10/29/00 10:49 AM
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>he said that he did not "believe" anything - he knew things. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He [bold] believed [/bold] that there is only knowledge or ignorance.<

Max, I am sure this is a mere slip of the keyboard, but do not the words of your above post contain a huge internal inconsistency?


#8789 10/29/00 12:59 PM
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Bridget--nice catch, my dear! Kudos.

Max--Well, this fellow can be admired for sticking to his
principles right or wrong, but I must say there are some
holes in his logic, acc'g to what he put in the site you
gave. For ex., if God wants witches to die, it doesn't
follow that He wants a certain person to murder them!

But--and this made me absolutely hysterical, half wanting to
shriek with laughter at the incredible timing of this find, and the other half wanting to groan over this gentleman's
black-or-white only outlook--(EEP! shanks, this is definitely one of those convoluted sentences I posted about!). Sorry--I'll start anew.

I went to the site, read it, then clicked "BACK" at the bottom of his page, and here is what I found:
"Man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle.




#8790 10/29/00 06:22 PM
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he said that he did not "believe" anything - he knew things. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He [bold] believed [/bold] that there is only knowledge or ignorance

I noticeed the inconsistency as I typed it, but to me the opinion he stated was a belief. To him, he "knew" there was only knowledge or ignorance, but I reported his viewpoint from my own perspective, partly because find it difficult to grasp that someone can have no belief in anything. I should have been more careful, and written something like, "in his opinion", but even though I noticed the error when I read the first reply, I decided to let the inconsistency go uncorrected because it summed up my opinion of his viewpoint.


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I decided to let the inconsistency go uncorrected
Thought as much, Sweetie!


#8792 10/29/00 09:28 PM
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Rhubarb Commando inquires: "...Gorillas were referred to, familiarly, as 'puggies.' Any ideas where this word could have come from?"

Chimpanzees, orangutan and gorillas are all members of the family Pongidae. One suspects a derivation from this Latin zoological name to the British colloguialism "puggies."




#8793 10/29/00 09:31 PM
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Fishy inquires: "Does this mean that you really are as one with your nom de plume?"

To which the Reverend Doctor responds: "Yup."




#8794 10/30/00 05:44 AM
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Helen asks: "please, could you provide a link to good translation software, or a translation for those of use who have forgotten the little Latin we learned."

And the Vicar responds: "May Almighty God be merciful to you and, forgiving you your sins, bring you to everlasting life."



#8795 10/30/00 06:26 AM
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. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance.<
..internal inconsistency?

Hi Bridget,
To me, there is absolutely no inconsistency in this critique, on the contrary, it is a poignant way of showing that the "black-and-white" concept is untenable. It sprang to my attention because yesterday I discussed with an old friend who now intends to rewrite the history of his region, claiming that all previous history had been "colored" by the views of historians, and he wanted to reveal "the truth"..


#8796 10/30/00 03:21 PM
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Ahh!, the closing line of Confession!
Bless me, father it has been any number of years since my last confession! (or is the closing line, "Go in peace, and sin no more"?)

I still "keep the faith", but no longer have the belief that the Roman catholic church is the only pathway to God.
One of the local churches still offers services in latin, but, like the joke in an other string, when i do get to church, I tend to one of the local Quaker services..
and so i weave together several threads....


#8797 10/30/00 05:55 PM
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I went to the site, read it, then clicked "BACK" at the bottom of his page, and here is what I found:
"Man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle."


As much as I would love to attribute this discovery to the mysterious ways of The Divinity, Jackie, I am afraid the explanation is very simple. I found that site by doing a search at google.com for the phrase "Man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle." I had even emailed the author of the site to see if he knew who said it first, but unfortunately he had just seen it as a grafitto some thirty years ago and liked it. The author is not the gentleman I spoke with, but certainly does seem to share very similar views. I felt as you did about some of his extrapolations - the "killing witches" thing in particular.


#8798 10/31/00 01:29 AM
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Just to do a follow-up on my initial post in this thread…

Mary Lamberton, Research Correspondent at National Georgraphic Society could find no mention of Mogambo on any of their maps. She also checked with the National Imagery and Mapping Agency’s database of foreign names and came out empty.



#8799 10/31/00 01:49 AM
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...and just to follow up on tsuwm's initial post if I may be so bold, and to confound the issue further, I quote from
http://www.ogd.org/rapport/gb/RP11_7_KENYA.html:
The East African Standard, one of Kenya's largest newspapers, said that this hashish had been manufactured in a 500 ha farm in the Mogambo region of Somalia

From memory I found two or three other similar references - I think at least one was an aid organization website.


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Ah, here's one more:
http://vwww.vita.org/disaster/sitrep/97b/0094.html
from Volunteers in Technical Assistance, Dec 1997 report re Somalia floods.

Also found references to Mogambo, Somalia in a number of - unfortunately broken - links to the Journal of Humanitarian Assistance.


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I once wrote a rather long post (on another board) about the difference, as I see it, between 'belief that' and 'belief in', with loads of swipes at pomo relativism along the way. If you're interested, it has been archived at:

http://www.unfacts.f2s.com/archive/shanks/POMO.html

cheer

the sunshine (doing my bit for Plato) warrior


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and gorillas are all members of the family Pongidae

Many thanks, Pa,


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claiming that all previous history had been "colored" by the views of historians, and he wanted to reveal "the truth"..

In a rare moment of reponsibility, I have started another thread on this topic, in Miscellany, under the title "The poverty of History" apologies to K.Marx


#8804 10/31/00 02:04 PM
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the Reverend Doctor responds: "Yup."

To wish Fishy replies "Glup Glup. Thought so!"

Here's Rhub's "Latin Babel Fish" post by the way, for all those interested in an online Latin/English translator:
http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Board=miscellany&Number=5052


#8805 10/31/00 02:19 PM
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I found that site by doing a search at google.com for the phrase "Man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle."

My hero!
I should be following this up in greater earnest myself, of course, but this goes to the root of whoever first came out with the like a fish needs a bicycle construction. Which is obviously of interest to all present, but myself especially.

Of course, there is the possibility that the phrase originated solely as a graffito, and no-one but Bill Posters can be held responsible. A bit like the other vaguely related phrase: as much use as an ash-tray on a motorbike.

Now someone will tell me they know who first came out with that phrase, won't they?



#8806 10/31/00 03:11 PM
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the difference..between 'belief that' and 'belief in'

Thanks for that shanks. I think it is a useful distinction. Though I have to confess to POMOid tendencies myself, as you may notice from time to time!

I suppose it could be argued that this subject belongs not only on another thread, but on another Board.
Or does it? Using words correctly, defining commonly-acceptable interpretations and occasionally/often living with differences of opinion - aren't these common to AWAD and several strands of Philosophy?



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Thanks for the link Marty. I think I will make it a mini-mission to have Mogambo appear on National Geographic maps - special AWAD contibution to NG so to speak. I'll pass on link and info to them, and niggle them from there on. Cross your fingers.


#8808 10/31/00 03:44 PM
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>..and just to follow up... if I may be so bold, and to confound the issue further...

marty, this reminds me that I've been wanting to say that I think it's terrific the way everyone has taken to Looking It Up, and posting hot links -- IMHO this is the way the web was meant to be used!


#8809 10/31/00 03:52 PM
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There are some who would say that all of modern philosophy is about language! So you're not far off there. But I agree that the discussion, as such, seems to have less to do with our ayleur tendencies, and more with generalised intellectualisms...

If you followed the link, you'd find yourself gently nudged towards the F.A.C.T.S board. It's where (when we can haul ourselves out of the gutter) a number of us discuss issues like this. Current hot topic: Why is there something instead of nothing?

cheer

the sunshine warrior


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followed the link

Thankshanks - helpful link.

Does this mean you are a factotum?


#8811 10/31/00 04:04 PM
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One of our number started this UNofficial FACTS site, that he decided to call UNFACTS. Under his terminology, we are all FACTOIDS!


#8812 10/31/00 04:08 PM
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a mini-mission to have Mogambo appear on National Geographic maps

Hold your horses, bel! Just occurs to me that Mogambo could be an old name for a region now known by another name. In a similar manner to Ceylon 'becoming' Sri Lanka and Rhodesia, ummm, Zaire isn't it? And what was Yugoslavia now being officially recognised as a bunch of smaller countries.

Both Marty's reference articles are dated 1997 - may this have been the last time when it was politically acceptable to use the old name?

Just an idea.




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fishy

Rhodesia is Zimbabwe. There seem to be a few web sites with Zimbabwe addresses so you could have be on the right track.


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