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Since the shortlist for the Turner Prize had been announced, many questions have been asked as to whether many of the shortlisted pieces could really be called art (these pieces included a perspex cieling and, from last year, a light that flashed on and off). It's been suggested that these works should be classified as 'phart' - an alternative spin off of art. Phartists whould create works of phart that would be judged in phart competitions, displayed in phart galleries and assesed by phart critics. This new classification would go a long way to solving the many diputes that arise in the art/phart world. Then of course, as phart progresses, we will see the emergence of classical phart, modern phart, figurative phart... the list will be endless, and a new and wonderful art- sorry phart form will be born! EDIT:By the way: Phart - a word derived from the words phonomonum and art - describing a phonomonum that has arisen from art... No prejudices implied.  EDIT(2): Oops, I meant ph enomenon. If the world doesn't suck, we'd all fall off.
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Dear bonzaialsatian: De gustibus non est, and all that.......
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Pooh-Bah
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We need a definition of "Art", here, I think.
At base level, anything that isn't "Natural" - i.e., produced by nature - is "Art".
If you accept that proposition, then the Turner Prize entries all qualify - as do the clothes I'm wearing, the chair I sit on, the desk I work at etc ad infinitum.
So, we need a more useful and usable definition.
How about this?
"Art" is the arrangement or re-arrangement of articles, natural or made, into a form that has no intrinsic use or purpose other than as decoration.
Judgement of the success of a piece of "Art" is, and always will be, subjective. HOwever, from society's point of view, some degree of consensus on the matter is, at the very least, desirable.
How many people have to agree that a piece of "Art" is good before it is acceptable for public display?
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> "Art" is the arrangement or re-arrangement of articles, natural or made, into a form that has no intrinsic use or purpose other than as decoration.
This definition would please the exponents of 'found art' - those who will take (usually) utilitartian objects and place them in odd (even provocative) ways to evoke thoughts in the viewer. In my eyes though putting, for example, a tampon in a teacup is neither a great idea, an achievement, or a deep way to look at the repression of women.
> How many people have to agree that a piece of "Art" is good before it is acceptable for public display?
The idea of a 'Canon of visual art' is flimsy to say the least. The practice, often by excellent artists of 'creating' such ridiculous works as 'An empty margarine container' seems to be their way of sticking their finger up at the ego oriented 'artistic community'; for there are too many critics and too little art. Mind you I can think of a few living artists I like - not surprisingly they're all women - the rest shouldn't be dubbed 'phart', but simply 'wank'. I think institutionalized modern visual art has, per se, lost any credibility among the general population except in its most direct and anonymous forms like that of graffiti and crop circles.
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I like going through the modern art wing of our local museum because I know I'm going to be surprised. Rarely, an artist's idea might seem a bit too easy--not much imagination--but more often than not I'm blown away by the artists' imaginations.
wwh is correct to point out the taste issue. Probably what I find offensive, a good body of other people would find to be liberating. Heaven knows we're not going to find anything on earth that we all can agree about other than the basest animal instincts and needs...and even then some people try to cross the line.
But I do like this idea of Phart! At least I'd have a mental term for that art that I find to be trivial and offensive. I'd have Art and Phart in my little Hall of Gustibus. [Didn't you mean phenomenon?]
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wow. as long as there isn't a quiz at the end, I'm ok. thanks, zocto! 
formerly known as etaoin...
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"Art" is the arrangement or re-arrangement of articles, natural or made, into a form that has no intrinsic use or purpose other than as decoration.
With all due respect I must disagree. The furniture I make I consider art, and definitely the boxes I make ARE an art form (not that I am yet particularly good at it, but I'm certainly striving to blend the esthetic with the useful.) Both the furniture and the boxes (and a few lamps along the way) are used, but are meant to be pleasing to the eye.
Peggy j8ust wandered by and siad, "Whoa! Tell him about the quilts I make."
I rest my case :)
TEd
TEd
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I agree with TEd. But, if I must rise to my reputation, I'll state that the aspects of the creation of a chair that do not contribute to its funcionality as a chair may be considered art. One could make a perfectly functioning chair without a lick of artwork. That it may be more pleasing to have a chair that is also a work of art is irrelevant to the chairness of the artless work.
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Pooh-Bah
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Beautifully put, Faldage.
I agree with TEd that there is a cross over between arts and crafts - certainly, design is an accepted area of art and is taught in art colleges throughout Britain, at least.
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"Art" is the arrangement or re-arrangement of articles, natural or made, into a form that has no intrinsic use or purpose other than as decoration.Both the furniture and the boxes [...]are meant to be pleasing to the eye.I also don't agree that all art should have no other use other than decoration, however, what both of these statements seem to agree on is that art should be 'pleasing to the eye,' or at least move us in some way. It is true that there is no accounting for taste, but I fail to see how anyone can be move by a lightbulb turning on and off every few seconds... I sure some will disagree with me on this one! If the world doesn't suck, we'd all fall off.
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The Light Bulb:
First, we'd have to see this work of art to make any kind of judgment.
Perhaps the bulb turns on and off eratically;or perhaps in regularly-timed intervals; or spells out something in Morse code; or simply causes us to look at it and really see its details.
I haven't seen the work of art, so I can't judge, but, if it won some kind of award, I'd hope that the artist did something interesting or enlightening with the light bulb. I hope it just isn't a light bulb that comes on at regular intervals--that would sound more like a science project. To win an award, there was probably something creative in how this bulb was presented. Could there be something missing to your story? Maybe the critical element?
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if it won some kind of award, I'd hope that the artist did something interesting or enlightening with the light bulb.
Hmm . . .I haven't seen it either, but I doubt he did. A big thing in modern art is to break stuff down to its base elements to really look at them. Now, I'm not sure what you get out of watching a light go on and off, or looking at a canvas painted one, solid, primary color, but that's the point. Modern art is reflective, you get out of it what you put in.
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Nope, it's just a regular bulb in an empty room, going on and off at regularly timed intervals. (En lightening and de lighting to some, though I was rather put out!  ) If the world doesn't suck, we'd all fall off.
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Pooh-Bah
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It was a year ago, and I didn;t pay all that much attention at the time, but so far as I remember, the piece of "art" was not the light bulb, but the whole room being plunged into darkness then filled with light at regular intervals. The light bulb was, of course, an essential elemant of the piece, but was not intended as the main focus.
I believe that the artist was making some sort of "statement" that word again with the alternation of light and darkness.
Personally, I considered it to be pretentious drivel, but that is my own, subjective view and I will defend to my last breath the right for any one to make an arrangement of that sort, with some "artistic" purpose in mind and to declare it as art.
I will also defend the right od all of us to say that it doesn't appeal to us and to totally disagree with the judges of the Turner Prize.
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Pooh-Bah
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.... and when public money is involved, we certainly have every right to demand that it is spent on "worthwhile" projects - the problem is, who is to judge *that ???
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Seeing Georgia O'Keefe's work for the first time:
I'd read a biography, looked through two collected volumes of her work, had been interested in her denial that her work was primarily sexual, if sexual at all.
But it wasn't until I saw her paintings in person that my appreciation for what she was doing leapt high--high as a salmon leaping up falls.
She didn't just paint. She painted with precision. She painted in such a way that I could see how each stroke had been applied with a kind of perfected, even unearthly skill. What she did was comparable, in my mind, to a master violinist performing one of the most demanding concertos seemingly flawlessly. A Midori at the Beethoven. A Milstein at the Tchaikovsky. O'Keefe did with paint what Heifetz did with the Brahms.
I agree that whatever art is lies out there on many levels. And I wouldn't want anyone to stop the creative impulse in anyone, no matter what the level and no matter what the subject or the medium.
Babatunde Olatunji told a group of children learning African drumming that the orchestra didn't have the spirit of drummers drumming about the god spirit of Iron. But I knew he was wrong, though I greatly admire him and hold his own skills high in my estimation. Sometimes it's too easy to criticize what you haven't tried yourself--too easy to miss excellence because of lack of understanding.
But at my own level of lack of understanding of this light bulb, taking a room from darkness to light and back to darkness again...well, it seems to be a statement at best. Just something to make us think. But not prize-worthy. Where's that element of a human doing something godlike? Where's the heart-stopping moment that makes us (or me) sense something of greatness? It seems to me we should give prizes to great, successful effort... something that somehow humbles us.
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She painted in such a way that I could see how each stroke had been applied with a kind of perfected, even unearthly skill.
To me, art should go beyond that. The technique should be transparent. I've heared music that was played with the most exacting technique that didn't have the spirit of a bunch of mental hospital patients banging on kitchen pans. And the latter is easily at least as enjoyable as the former. Granted it's best when there is both spirit and technique, but, in general, I would prefer the spirit to the technique. And, if the technique is there, I, for one, don't want it shoved in my face.
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the heart-stopping moment that makes us (or me) sense something of greatnessI think this captures something of my own feelings on art. To me, a work of art points beyond itself, and often takes me beyond myself, enhancing my sense of wonder. It's an extremely valid function of art to take something supposedly mundane and make the audience look at it again with new eyes. The distinction is that phart often tries to do so too hard and too consciously. We shouldn't take enlightenment too seriously. Awe and laughter are surprisingly close.
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Pooh-Bah
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Here is Website on the Turner prize. It doesn't explain why the wierd and wonderful should be so strongly featured. http://www.tate.org.uk/home/faqs/turner.htm
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She painted in such a way that I could see how each stroke had been applied with a kind of
perfected, even unearthly skill. In reply to:
To me, art should go beyond that.
And to me, too. The point I make about O'Keefe's work is her art included great technical skill.
I heard a competition of young violinists once. Some played with heart; a few with skill. The winner played poorly, but performed a work by far more difficult than the other contestants'. He managed the technique and intonation in a few sections, but the work was well beyond his level. I think the judges gave him first prize just because he could labor through the work. And I thought there was a poor lesson there. He played poorly. He played out-of-tune most of the time. Forget spirit. He was laboring too hard to get through the movement. And one cellist who played well, but more simply, moved me, at least, with his performance. He showed a lot of potential and the technical elements were in place. He just wasn't show-boating.
And what I'm getting at here is in the arts, when I look for great art, I do want to have the chance to be impressed by technical skill. No, I don't want it to "hit me in the face" so that the technique obliterates the message. The message is the thing of heart or mind that is the point of creativity. And it's wonderful when Pound's edict to "make it new" occurs. But I love being overcome in how the whole work unfolds. The organic unity of the work and also the complexity of a great work. I like thinking, "I cannot do this. I cannot reproduce this. This experience is overwhelming. Even if I could technically do what is being done here, I can't pull off the elements that cause my emotional reaction."
It has something to do with form and function. It has something to do with mind and heart. And to be great, it has to have both the intellectual and the emotional or spiritual. I can be amused and delighted by balloons of color shot out at a blank canvas and seeing the serendipitous results there. But I don't think my level of delight will begin to approach that of sensing I'm in the presence of greatness. I can become excited to hear Faldage's room of banging musicians playing out of great spirit, but I won't ever put that happening on the same level as hearing Jessica Lee in recital at Curtis and hearing her Beethoven sonata that caused me to cry the next day to remember, so strong was her spirit, so great was her skill.
Aren't we, finally, spiritual beings? But isn't it spirit informed by intelligence? And can't we tell, really, when the Emperor is wearing no clothes?
I'd like to break that light bulb--at least where it resides in my brain--and say: "Accept this bulb turning on and off as great art? Well, step into this pit of darkness I just created with it."
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We need a definition of "Art", here, I think.How 'bout this? The two most engaging powers of an author are to make new things familiar, and familiar things new. - Samuel Johnson("author" here being taken to mean "creator") The "problem" with art and its definition, is that everyone, but EVERYONE, gets something different out of what they see. I remember discussing Voice of Fire with an instructor I worked with. Can't remember the name of the artist at the moment but the work is HUGE - I don't remember the dimensions but it's nearly floor-to-ceiling in Canada's National Gallery in Ottawa. And what is it? A vertical blue stripe. A vertical orange stripe. Another vertical blue stripe. The National Gallery paid something like $1.2 million for it. (That's about fifty cents US these days. ) Great public outcry; someone painted the same thing on his barn door; just about every Regular Joe was incensed by it. I asked this instructor, an artist some of whose work is also owned by the National Gallery (but they didn't pay him $1.2 mil. for it!), what he thought of Voice of Fire (Barnett Newman was the artist, I think). Not having seen it, he said he thought it was an important work in that artist's development and that it was fine that the Nat. Gal. spent that much on it. I spoke with him again, when working for him on a subsequent occasion, when he'd seen Voice of Fire. He seemed to have changed his mind. I asked him about it and he said, unhappily, "Well, I always like to say that art is a mansion that has many rooms." (Crib from the Bible!) Well, if art is a mansion that has many rooms, all I can say is, I've been in the toilet and the broom cupboard more often than I care to remember. In the Art Gallery of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia, I saw a room with about a dozen long, narrow sticks in it. Each stick had a hinge at one end. Most of the time they lay on the floor, but every now and then, one or more of them would rise up from the hinge and then fall to the floor again. The piece was called "Slapstick." That's not art - that's a pun. In Sydney's Modern Art Gallery (can't remember its official name, sorry), there was a room filled with smog/smoke/dry ice - not sure how they created the effect. On a wall near the room, and separate from it, was a cash register receipt taped to the wall. And there was a platform in another room, onto which you climbed. You lay flat on your back and a security guard strapped you down and rolled you out the window to look up the building. That was a point-of-view thing. In Canberra, at Australia's National Gallery, I saw a large canvas with two types of paint on it: a band of matte black and a band of slighty glossy black. I got discussing it with a security guard, who told me that some people found it very powerful and absolutely loved it. I've also looked through modern art books, and in one, there was a photograph of a room in a gallery and the floor sloped up at one end. The text accompanying the photo explained that the artist hid under the floor and he had a microphone there, the amplifier/speaker for which was above the floor in the room. The artist lay there and masturbated and told the visitors to the room about it. Sorry, that's not art - that's porn. Now it irritates me that these are the things I remember, because I consider them foolish and stupid. To my mind, art is something that illuminates, reveals, makes new, and/or provokes thought - and is also something that not just anyone could do. Granted, not just anyone WOULD lie under a floor and wank and tell people about it, but anyone COULD do that. Puns aren't art. Porn isn't art. Some things that are very clever are, nevertheless, not art. And yet, I also remember taking a course called Modern Poetry at university. I complained to the prof one day about how silly some of it seemed to me. He got down from the shelf in his office a box of poems. One was a sheet with two alternating symbols on it; I asked him, "What the hell is that?" and he said, triumphantly, "It's what print looks like to someone who doesn't know how to read." He pointed out to me that the word "poetry" comes from the Greek "poeos" (I probably spelled that wrong) and that it means, quite simply, "to make." Anything made is a poem (someone has already made that point/poem here!). At lunch that day I was telling a friend who was also in the Modern Poetry course, what our prof had said. I had an exceptionally large potato chip and I took it and put it on my side plate, made a fist and crushed it with one blow, and said, "According to Gordon, that's a poem." Similarly, I remember my mother complaining to someone about a piece of "art" that consisted of a few rows of coloured squares. She said, "I could've done that." And the friend said, "Yes, but you didn't." I think art should be way more than just that which we could have done, but didn't. But partly I think that because I'm pissed off at all these artists who get grant money and win substantial prizes for doing things any of us could have done. How do I get on that gravy train?!  But seriously - I can't agree with this: "Art" is the arrangement or re-arrangement of articles, natural or made, into a form that has no intrinsic use or purpose other than as decoration.However we get to it, art MUST contain SOMETHING of meaning. Even "decoration" gives us pleasure (or, ideally it does, sez she, quickly qualifying). Where the modern artists often fall down, is in creating "art" (or phart, which somehow seems a perfect term!) that is obscure and impenetrable to a vast proportion of their viewers. by's example of the tampon in a teacup is a perfect illustration of this. At this point, you start getting into that whole thorny issue of the artists' artist. I can't remember who said it, but someone once pointed out that self-referential art or art that only speaks to a very narrow segment of the population is pointless and might just as well not have been made (something to that effect), since it has no reference in most people's understanding and therefore is of no help to most people in terms of being an enlightening or even merely beautifying influence in their lives. [/rant]
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Good Morning Boys and Girls.
Katie bar the door and Frank close the windows. Those of you with short short-term memories get out your slate and chalk, and those of you with short long-term memories fetch a chisel and grab some granite because today, class, even the smallest of your pumpkin heads is going to fully understand the answer to the question that drove Socrates to drink and Nietzsche to dementia, which is...
What is Art?
And so, without further ado, here is the answer...
Art is communication between human beings without word/symbols, about mutually shared conditions of being alive.
OK, that's it, Katie go unbar the door, Frank go open the win...What? You don't understand? (Why me Lord?)...OK, sit back down and I'll explain...
When we use the term "Art", it has an essence. An essence akin to the Socratic belief that the purpose of, for example, a hammer, is in its function, that is, to hammer. The purpose of the word "Art" is to identify and delimit this sub-conscious to sub-conscious communication and therein lies the word's essence. All other applications of the word are really entirely different words but the english language has unhappily evolved such carefree confusions.
Now wait just one cotton picking minute, you might say, What about that certain knowing glance across a room between two lovers, no words are said, yet shared information passes...Excuse me...SIT BACK DOWN WO'N, STOP STARING AT ALL THE LADIES!...now where was I? Oh yes...No, that is not Art, that is merely a visual symbol of mutual understanding without words, like a handshake. Now I will take some of your questions...
Bright boy in the back: Uh, Mister Milum, is Art the object or is Art the sub-conscious communication? And what happens if the object doesn't provoke an unspoken and unspeakable feeling in me, is it Art?
Milum: No. It only becomes Art when it speaks to your sub-conscious. If the object evokes a feeling that can be put into words it is not Art. Art, as we all know, is very subjective. No example of Art can be said to be universal, at least none that we know of.
Cute pert blonde in short skirt on the front row: Hello Mister Milum, first I'd like to say what a pleasure it is to have a man of your high reputation around here to help us learn about all these important things. Ahem...My question might be a little silly but I'd like to know if once an object becomes a work of Art by the transfer of non-verbal information, does it stay a work of Art or not? I'll sit down and listen to your answer.
Milum: Well I'll say this, I don't think your question was silly. I think it was a good question. No! It was a brilliant question. Thank you for your question. Ahem...Let me cite the Campbell Soup Can Pop Art of Andy Warhol as an example; In his pop screen prints he caused others to focus on the beauty and form of everyday manufactured objects around us. But once this was realized his silk screens and paintings have only worth as collector items, such as baseball cards, with maybe a minor value as artifacts for psychological historians of the future.
Class dismissed.
Milum.
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In reply to:
Art is communication between human beings without word/symbols, about mutually shared conditions of being alive.
Well, Mr. Milum, what about literature? Literature ain't art or somethin'?
Or are we just talkin' about the visual arts here?
Best regards,
WordsWorth
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Pooh-Bah
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Art is communication between human beings without word/symbols, about mutually shared conditions of being alive.
what about literature? Literature ain't art or somethin'?
- and what about theatre? Theatre ain't art, huh?
- and what are "words", anyway? Communication using sounds of a more or less conventional nature?
Music, other than singing, isn't exactly words, but it ain't far short of it, either. please don't say music isn't art - not while dub-dub is listening!
Mind you, milum, I agree with much of what you teach, and one person's art is another person's phart - or vice versa.
Isn't it strange that olfactory art has never really been developed, other than commercially.
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well, there was Septimus Piesse: The Odophone.—The most important element in the perfumer’s art is the blending of the odorous principles to form a mixture which gratifies the sense of smell. Experience is the only guide. It is impossible to foretell the odour of a mixture from the odours of its components. Septimus Piesse endeavoured to show that a certain scale or gamut existed amongst odours as amongst sounds, taking the sharp smells to correspond with h:gh notes and the heavy smells with low. He illustrated the idea by classifying some fifty odours in this manner, mal:ing each to correspond with a certain note, one-half in each clef, and extending above and below the lines. For example, treble clef note E (4th space) corresponds with Portugal (orange), note D (1st space below clef) with violet, note F (4th space above clef) with ambergris. It is readily noticed in practice that ambergris is much sharper in smell (higher) than violet, while Portugal is intermediate. He asserted that properly to constitute a bouquet the odours to be taken should correspond in the gamut like the notes of a musical chord—one false note among the odours as among the music destroying the harmony. Thus on his odophone, santa!, geranium, acacia, orange-flower, camphor, corresponding with C (bass 2nd line below), C (bass 2nd space), E (treble 1st line), G (treble 2nd line), C (treble 3rd space), constitute the bouquet of chord C.from: http://6.1911encyclopedia.org/P/PE/PERGOLA.htmand here: http://www.deadmedia.org/notes/6/069.html
formerly known as etaoin...
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"Show me"
"Show you"
...Kick, oh, man! i.e., Kikoman--far be it from me to mention a product name
What's with the fish head?
And what's with pouring sauce over the boy who didn't seem to mind having sauce poured over his head by the fish head?
And with the little girl the fish head took to bed?
And stealing Superman's cape and stockings?
And with the Pyramids?
This art tells us it's one of the Seven Wonders of Advertising?
Best part, however, in this truly amazing bit of Japanese borrowed creativity art was how my mind's eye immediately translated the tofu cubes into sugar cubes. I had to keep hitting myself on the shoulder and saying to myself, "Think Japan. Don't think pony barn."
Still, what's with the fish head? To obviousize: Is it nothing more than fish being a staple of the Japanese diet? If so, why not a rice head? Of course, a fish head is funnier, so I suppose the Japanese creative-borrower artists were attempting to get their audiences loosened up and laughing outrageously out-of-control.
Most important honorable question, ayleur-sans:
Is this art more thought-provoking and enlightening than a light bulb turning on and off at regular intervals?
Second most important honorable question:
Is this thread destined to become a food thread?
Third most important honorable question:
Don't we all know bits of apple are better for ponies than sugar cubes?
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This is Art...
... but not as we know it.
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and the cat hanging? what's up with that?
formerly known as etaoin...
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enthusiast
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...errk... (maybe this sort of advertising art should be called mart? Just to add to the confusion!  )
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Nice, Alex, but no real continuity, Art! Tell me?
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Hokusai groks life. Hokusai has painted one moment of extreme intensity; energy that permeates all existence; an archtypal moment of time. a pinpoint of the fundamental is-ness; existing both as macro and microscopic simultaneously. thought. love. be.
formerly known as etaoin...
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Ain't it the truth. ... but not as we know it!
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... but not as we know it!
Forgive me friends, I'm slow but eventually I figure out what you people are saying. Embedded within Rhuby's seemingly innocent, cast-off-remark above was a koan, a cry for help, an otherworldly wailing moan/scream with grotesque echoes that reverberated throughout time to the beginnings of mankind and of life itself. Rhuby was asking...
What is meant by the term "to know" ?
I'm glad you asked. It is important to know what we mean by "knowing" in order to understand the absolute meaning of Art.
1,000,000 YEARS B.C.
Before language life was pretty well straightforward. If a hungry tiger was chasing you you pretty well knew he wasn't chasing you for a conversation about the aesthetics of his stripes.
Or, if you pinched the tail of the Big Guy's favorite chick you pretty well knew that pretty soon you were gonna be knocked off your rock.
(Hence the term knocked off your rocker but I digress.)
Anyway, before language the information that we extracted and abstracted from the environment for selfish survival reasons was directly consensequated by the harsh reality of nature, and as far as that went, that was the truth.
100,000 YEARS B.C.
Language was a pretty good invention. Like television and the computer it held the potential to offer mankind much. But along with the ease of effective transfer of valuable information came the rise of self interest groups like shamans, bankers, and aluminum siding salesmen, who by the necessity of staying in business, lied loud and long to all who would listen.
But yet lying worked. If a leader couldn't rabble rouse his troops to effective battle that particular entity couldn't stand. So more and more an interacting culture was constructed based on all kind of lies. And one of these self perpetuating lies is what today we call Art.
(Please excuse me. They are calling me to Thanksgiving dinner, and I kid you not.)
To be continued...
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Please, Mr Milum, what does consensequated mean?
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Art is, as the man said, very much in the eye of the beholder. Trying to define exactly what art is, never mind what constitutes artistic merit, is so much drivel doomed to an eternity as dried saliva on the floor of civilisation. And someone will frame it and flog it to the Tate Modern for a six-figure sum.
One person's art is another person's load of bollocks, and I should know. I find an awful lot of what is passed off as art - and from all periods, I might add - to be just that. Bollocks.
The panel which judges the Turner prize has an eye for pure twaddle, that's for real. The idea of passing off a room with a light turning on and off in it as having artistic merit, never mind its being awarded anything but the booby prize, just tells me that people have too much money and too little taste.
BUT, and that was obviously a big but, I am very much aware that I have set tight boundaries around what I am prepared to accept as art and that my narrow view is not shared by everyone. Therefore, display what you like. Call it what you like. If YOU appreciate it as art, then I guess it's art - to you. Just don't expect me to agree with your analysis ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Please, Mr Milum, what does consensequated mean?
...precisely you want it to, no more and no less.
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consensequated (con-SENS-qu-ate-ed) to give sensory information of the consequences of actions gone before.
example: The information...was directly consensequated by the harsh reality of nature.
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consensequated (con-SENS-qu-ate-ed)
I thought it was a SIX-syllable word. Si?
This is starting to sound like "After I zoquo, I like to ushnu." !
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In reply to:
Nice, Alex, but no real continuity, Art! Tell me?
Can somebody translate the above quote into English for me please? ;)
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They are calling me to Thanksgiving dinner, and I kid you not.
That's a copout and you know it, Mr. Minderbinder. You coulda done tole 'em you were watching a important football game an' couldn't come just right now. Harrumph!®
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I think I'd better move my points forward a little faster, I think Wofdoc is getting a little bored. Alex is asking for clarifications and faldage's mood is one of detached mild amusement, So...
The advent of language inaugurated a new world where outright lies could be used to perpetuate and enhance the role of the individual to the detriment, or conversely, to the benefit, of the larger group. Quickly it became important to determine which was which.
One way to prevent the spread of lies was to reject all new information. This included information that was transmitted of the mores of other cultures. We still do this.
Another way was to only accept new information from ingroup sources who are considered wise. We still do this too.
The first way never works. Cultures, like people, evolve. Mid-eastern culture is experiencing the foibles of their restrictive mindset while you read. This is so because in a common mindset most all values are intergraded into a belief-system whole. Remove the wrong domino and the system fails and falls.
The second way of protecting against individuals who lie is even worse. Such is the nature of language animals that they will tell the greatest and grandest of lies in order to gain comfort and to insure that a comfortable station is given to the products of their loins. The most cunning become professionals and wrap their profession in high-sounding words that unhappily allows them to persist through time. The greatest offenders are kings, lawyers, doctors, preachers*, teachers*, and scientists* (an asterisk because they get new recruits that believe their own propaganda.) These lies are the stuff of class snobbery, a shameful but functional farce. The problem with this system is that new information is directed toward these self-aggrandized folk before it (rightly or wrongly)can be accessed and assimilated into the group as a whole.
So now we come to the set of pre-ordained conditions that will lie to us about what we should call Art.
(Uh, oh...It's time for me to go play tennis. I've been thrown out of the group for almost a year now, so I feel that today I should be on time.)
To be continued...
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Milo....YOU PLAY TENNIS????!!!!! 
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In reply to:
The greatest offenders are kings, lawyers, doctors, preachers*, teachers*, and scientists* (an asterisk because they get new recruits that believe their own propaganda.)
...and Southern *Good Ol' Boys layin' a line on a body. Southern bullsh*t is an art form in a class of its own.
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Why yes modgod, I do, or did. Until about a year ago I played at least three times every week. Yesterday I went to the courts to play with my former tennis partners...nobody showed up. Maybe they forgot. Maybe they are still mad. I don't care, they were always jealous of my greater strength, speed and skill. I am going to find me some new partners, and this time they are going to be men.
ON ART
// ///
NO TRA A good place to start when explaining Art is to explain what its not. First, Art is not nature. Our eyes, within our lifetime frames a billion billion pictures of this world so you would think that at least one of them, by pure chance, would be Art. Its not. What you see is real and sometimes beautiful, but unless you experience a work of manmade Art you haven't seen Art. Truth and beauty is not Art.
Well then is music Art? No! Especially when accompanied by words that you can understand. Opera has a tough time rising to the status of Art, but many operatic works have great moments of high art. I introduce this example to underline the temporal nature of Art. Two quick analogies...
The first time we heard Beethoven's Fifth we said, "pretty dern good, a bit long, but good". The next time we heard it we comprehended the unity of all parts and we were moved to transcendent heights, far above sex and cracklin' cornbread. Then we played it over and over until it lost its shine.
The Chinese Commies drove men slap crazy by playing Beethoven's Fifth morning, noon, and night for weeks on end.
Some nice people on this board regard Leonardo da VInci's painting Mona Lisa as a (spit) portrait of a sick-looking broad. I don't think so. I just pulled up the Mona Lisa for reviewing and gazed into her eyes trying hard to find the secret of her smile. Then it struck me. Little Willie John was right. The Mona Lisa was a man! An effeminate man but none-the-less a man.
Maybe I'm wrong. But the point is that Art is only Art when viewed, felt, smelled, or otherwise sensed, at the moment of the sub-conscious transfer of a shared secret or joke or insight into the mystery of being alive. And the more you bring to the table the more you will be satisfied with the fare.
But music aside, poems and literature are th
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The Mona Lisa was a man!You wouldn't say that if you'd seen the *real Mona Lisa. The one you've seen is a bad imitation from one of Leonardo's students. I have, through great investigative effort, uncovered a reproduction of the original on the web. http://www.envisage1.com/bgmedia/monadebi.jpg
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But music aside, poems and literature are th
and so it was that at this point milum was struck mute (typographically) by Saint Luke, Patron Saint of the Arts.
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Well then is music Art? No! Especially when accompanied by words that you can understand.So, with words it is even more not art... er, that is to say, it is even less closer to being art than without, which is closer to, but not yet art... I mean, if it's ugly then it is just not beautiful at all, is it? Yet, a white lie, even though truly colorless, is not as bad as a straight-up fib... and that grape over there, when it dries up we don't call it a grape anymore, it becomes health food (aka. art)! ...and don't even get milum started on photography!
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don't even get milum started on photography!
You don't have to *get milum started. He's the original self-starter.
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In reply to:
You wouldn't say that if you'd seen the *real Mona Lisa.
I thought I told them they couldn't use that picture of me. 
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AnnaS:
Too many http's on your link...
Hurry! Change! My laptop battery is dying! And we have no power! I want to see what you were leading us on to...
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oops! Fixed. It's not a pretty sight, I should warn you....
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formerly known as etaoin...
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But it wouldn't have won the Turner Prize. Far too meaningful. Maybe if she'd paid somebody to turn the light on and off!
- Pfranz
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Well, I finally got to finish the second part of this thread... Many good points have been made here (and, milum let me just say that only you could've come across that Japanese-animation site...your background of Atlantean/Mu-ian powers is definitely showing! ...and, no, I am not ogling the women..well, okay, mebbe just a peek now and then ). This thread would definitely seem, to me, incomplete without a mention of Robert Mapplethorpes'* (see edit) Piss Christ, the piece which consisted of an upside-down Crucifix in a jar of his own urine, and which ignited the whole furor over the National Endowment of the Arts in the US. IMHO, there really must have been some better way, even at a soley intellectual level, to convey what he had in mind. All this did was give ammunition to the fundamentalist zealots to campaign for the removal of all public funding for art. As a consequence, and due to drastic compromising over the years since this Mapplethorpe* piece and exhibit gave rise to the controversy, funding for the arts has drastically, and continually shrunken...theatre companies and literary magazines are folding in droves, deprived of the meager, but crucial, grant monies that once kept them afloat. Then, of course, the same mindset was taken a step further, and seized on "art" as a dirty word for their own agenda's propagandizing, and music and art programs started disappearing from our schools, etc. Boy, funding Piss Christ was worth triggering all this, wasn't it? *[ EDIT: >Once it was abstract art that outraged the public and press, but almost all the recent controversies surrounding art in the popular media have involved images. Robert Mapplethorpe's photographs and Andres Serrano's Piss Christ (1987)are memorable recent examples.< So, evidently, Piss Christ was Andres Serrano's work, not Mapplethorpe's, but their work toured with the same exhibit that ignited the controversy.] And, yes, mg, these huge grants are monopolized by certain cliques in power, for instance the academic poets/professors who regularly award each other the huge grants (ie. Guggenheim, NEA, Bollingen, etc.) to reinforce their one-way post-modernist view of writng (or strangulation, thereof) as per their MFA Programs and "show don't tell" mantra that prohibits any real f****ing soul, spontaneity, spirit, or life from creeping into their cookie-cutter cardboard box "creations". The focus on the imposition of pure intellect is not art, IMO, and supports only their own agenda to be able to teach, and keeps their lucrative MFA Programs alive, and provides them with their reason to teach...because you can only teach what you can control, and you can't teach anything other than pure intellect...that's why the surreal, the abstract, the spontaneous, etc. scares them so. It renders their tenured teaching positions meaningless. The onslaught of MFA Programs have choked the life out of American writing, on the most part, and everyone knows it. I can site many "insider" essays and literary movements and circles afoot that speak to this...but, still, the 'establishment' is very difficult to derail. So, if you learn how to play the game, and kiss-up to the proper poet/professor[s] (if you wanna play that game), and start using their name and a hint of their style in submissions to university journals (most editors want to see cover letters, now, rather than to let the work speak for itself, this just being a cynical method of screening out their academic peers for publication ), you can start getting published and awarded almost immediately, and acquire publication credits so you can teach and launch your own workshops and, then, hopefully procure a nice fat MFA position at some college. In short, folks are flooding the market with shit work after whiling away a short time in MFA workshops so they can use their publication credits to teach. Writing to teach, not writing to write...so that's that. Some folks who go through this process do seem to somehow rise above it and hold onto the life in their work...our current US Poet Laureate, Billy Collins, for instance (who many in the academic establishemnt deride as 'too accessible', even though Collins is a professor himself, because they are highly suspect of his more spontaneous approach to writing), and Tony Hoagland, for instance. In short, you can't teach the subconscious and any element of that is a threat to the stodgy academic elitists now in literary power. But that will change, it always does. Bottom line is, we'll see what survives...what folks will be still be reading a few hundred years from now. Grants and fellowships were first established as awards to free up the time of new and emerging artists of promise so they could focus more on their work. But they've been turned into pretentious trophies that are continually awarded to established academics, by each other, who have cozy tenured professorships and every summer off to focus on their creative pursuits.... bourgeois art, bourgeois poetry (now there's an oxymoron for you). Whoever dies with the most prizes wins, or sumthin' like that.
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lightght
--Aram Saroyan
>Aram Saroyan wrote "lightght," the controversial one-word poem that became the subject of ongoing government and public debate after it was chosen for a National Endowment for the Arts Poetry Award by Robert Duncan in 1968. His minimalst work of this period is like advertising without commodities, redirecting the reader's attention on words in and of themselves: "ought," for example, as a pure psychological state without an object.<
Oh, really??????....
And I think Saroyan got around $120,000 for this.
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An exhibition of modern British art was shown at the Te Papa Museum in Wellington, Zildland, a couple of years ago. There were not one but two controversial works that had the local god-bothering crowd up in arms and out on the streets. The whole brouhaha was made more interesting for us in that it was led by a former colleague of 'er indoors, Grahame Capill, a professional worrier of the first water and a minister in a church of the happy hand-clapping variety, but I repeat myself.
The first, and probably most controversial, of the two anathematised works of art was called "Virgin in a Condom". The work was literally that - a small plastic statue of Mary of the kind beloved of Roman Catholic children (I'm guessing here; no one else I know of likes them). The statue was inside what looked like a used condom. Well, it was a condom; it looked to be not new. The artist had justified the juxtaposition in a paragraph or so in the catalogue, but the local killjoys weren't having a bar of it. Death to the blasphemers, yadda, yadda, yadda.
The second piece really was a great work of art. It was called "Wrecked Last Supper" and was a photo-montage of a bunch of self-absorbed disciples eating a last supper. The only problem - and it was one that the misogynistic Catholic church was particularly vitriolic about - was that the "Christ" figure was a topless woman. Not a page 3 glamour model, just an ordinary woman.
It was a marvellous piece of work, and if I'd had the wall space - at least 10 feet long and 6 feet high - I'd have stolen it.
The artistic merits of "Virgin in a Condom" were certainly debatable - I put it roughly in the same category as lights going on and off and people modelling their own faeces - but the "Wrecked Last Supper" piece was pure, unadulterated and very clever, art. IMHO, of course.
- Pfranz
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(make sure to click on the "Earth as Art sampler" link in the Gallery window for all the photos after you peruse the story...I especially like Dashte-e Kevir and Coahuila): http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/12/06/satellite.art/index.html
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Here's what I just read:
"This desolate landscape is part of the Sierra Madre Oriental mountain range, on the border between the Coahuila and Nuevo Leon provinces of Mexico. "
Does the word "oriental" here mean "eastern"?
Those photographs are stunning!!! I wish I understood them--wish I understood exactly what I was seeing.
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Oriente means East in Spanish. Oriental means Eastern. They are beautiful, aren't they? Does the Icelandic one remind you of a dried leaf with frost gathering in it's pockets?
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Does the word "oriental" here mean "eastern"?
Right, in one! Give that lady one silver dollar!
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Those pictures remind me of an exibition on in the Natrual History Museum in London: http://www.earthfromtheair.com
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The winner of this year's Turner prize has just been announced. It goes to a Keith Tyson, who, in my view was one of the artists who put the most thought into his work, though I guess whether it's art or phart® is still debatable. Here's a link to the his work: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A861644
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this kind of art reminds me of Ptolemy and epicycles and trying to get to some understanding through a roundabout way... the beauty and clarity of deep brevity is missing and non-understood.
formerly known as etaoin...
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If you were trying to say "it's a load of bollocks", then you got it right IMHO. I'm tempted to start a "Put the Art back into Art" campaign, I really am!
- Pfranz
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Oh boy, oh boy...what a mean crowd tonight. That stupid Winner of the Turner Prize has got everybody stirred up.
Look around, everyone 's URLing space pictures and calling them "Art".
Oh well, at least some of the worst troublemakers have left the hall. Capital Kiwi has smashed his golden tablets and gone back to the mountain or vice versa. And thank heaven, TEd Remington has had his pun and has left for greener Zoroastures. And O'yes Faldage, dear Faldage, is somewhere over in fun n' games nitting, and picking, and grinin', over some innocent newcomers misuse of the word "forsooth".
And Ah, goodbuddy Fishonabike has peddled off to the not-yet-so-well-understood places where fish peddle. And, lastly but not leastly, Rhubarb Commando has left us, but in spirit only, he is passed out in a folding chair by the exit door.
And if I have left anybody out, good. And good riddance. The crowd you left would shame a motorcycle gang.
But Damn and Alack! I must complete Lesson 5 (of 6) of the series THE NATURE OF ART in order to receive my meager stipend. (God bless us all. I could have been a prison guard, or a talk show host. Please, I pray, let me survive the night.)
Milum: (tapping a water glass) Attention please. I have an announcement to make.
Mean Crowd: mutter mumble chatter roar!
Milum: (shouting) If you simple minded simpletons will just shut up you'll hear me say that this will be the last night of my lectures of this series.
Mean Crowd : (a pin dropped in the seventeenth row.)
Milum: But first, you must take a test.
Mean Crowd : mutter mumble chatter roar.
Milum : Your test results will determine whether you pass or require further instruction.
Mean crowd : (sullenly they shut up) _________!
***COMING TOMORROW---> MILUM'S TEST.***
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
***COMING TOMORROW---> MILUM'S TEST.***
1. Where's our list of review questions?
2. Do we need calculators and slide rules?
3. Will points be taken off for spelling errors?
4. Can we use our notes?
5. Will it be a timed or a power test?
6. Are responses to be written or carved into granite?
7. Do we have to sign an honor code?
8. May we discuss our answers with classmates to get other points of view?
9. Do we get extra credit for creativity?
10. If so, please explain your take on creativity.
11. Is this just a test or an exam?
12. How much weight will this test/exam carry in our grade point average?
13. Will you provide us with a course instructor evaluation form so we may evaluate your teaching skills?
14. You're going to trust us, right? I mean, you won't be checking the undersides of our arms or anything like that to see whether we've hidden information, right? I mean, you don't believe we'd cheat or anything like that, right?
15. More on extra credit: We like extra credit. Do we get extra credit for reproducing the light bulb work of art? Or other such works of art? Like bringing in a can of Campbell's soup?
16. Do we have to adhere to your point of view that the poetry isn't art? Or the other arts you cast out the window? In other words, will we score just as high even if we disagree with you or would you prefer milumparrots?
17. What measures will you take to alleviate test-taking anxiety in your most anxious students? I like teachers who provide chocolate.
18. Can I sit next to tsuwm?
Thank you very much.
Wordwind
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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19. Do you promise to shut up and go away if we pretend to take your stupid test?
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old hand
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old hand
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20. No. But I will pretend to go away.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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pretend to go away
Fair enough.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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And if we pretend to take the "milArt Exam" does that count toward a good grade, especially in the Surrealist mutiple-choice section where A. equals B. anyway?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The object is to avoid the correct answer at all costs.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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the "milArt Exam"I have a CIA coffee cup from Mil-Art China ( http://www.milart.com/. Does that get me extra credit? I used to have a KGB cup, too, but I left it at Casowasco one weekend.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Oh, man! He's got a CIA coffee cup, AnnaS! from a Chinese milart exhibit...yeah, right... "I have seen the TIPS, and they is us." 
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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And, lastly but not leastly, Rhubarb Commando has left us, but in spirit only, he is passed out in a folding chair by the exit door.Where I was judged to be in fifth place by the Turner adjudication committee!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Juan, *snicker* Rhuby, *snortle*
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Great link, bon-al! Thanks!
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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petit-chien, that's a magic link. Many thanks for it!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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formerly known as etaoin...
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dizzying. The flower names in one of them. Reminded me of Shakespeare's list of blooms in Ophelia's bouquet.
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Carpal Tunnel
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That's wonderful, mini-German Shepherd. I liked the poppy one too.
WW, did you know there are Shakespeare gardens in many places? I've been to one here at Cornell, and the one at the Cloisters in NYC.
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old hand
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old hand
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If you like that interactive poetry, you'll love this: http://www.bornmagazine.orgIt's a project making flash movies with poetry and creative writing.
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old hand
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old hand
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Thanks bonzia, the first was neat. or uh, est.
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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
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I particularly liked 'The Poppy' too, and the Fishing one is also quite good.
I'd like to try to make something similar sometime - looks interesting, that's if I ever get round to figuring out how my animation progrmme works...
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