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#8564 10/24/00 09:26 AM
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your plan to reduce the volume of posting starts...er...tomorrow?

Er.. yes, that's it.
Tell you what, I'll make this my last ever "chat" posting. Only value-adding comments from now on.

And I'll get on with building a runway for the flying pigs.



#8565 10/25/00 01:46 PM
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However when I go back to the town where I grew up I hear a very strong and very different accent from the Raleigh/Durham accent that I'm used to

Yes, xara, this is also my experience over in UK. Agreed that the differences in pronunciation in UK are much wider and over much smaller distances - but despite that, there is a noticeable difference between both pronunciation and usages betweeen villages and towns only six or eight miles apart. A Galgate, Lancashire, person will immediately spot a person from Garstang, Lancashire, by his or her accent. It is even apparent to observant incomers to the area (like myself!)
I first noticed the phenomenon in Northampton shire, when I travelled all over that small county - it is c40 miles long and perhaps twenty-five wide - and there are very distinct differences between Daventry, at the West end and Irthlingboro at the East, with a dozen variations in between. Even the main river, the Nene. changes its name from "Nen" West of Oundle, to "Neen" East of that town.

It is a fascinating study, and it makes you realise that Prof. Henry Higgins was not making an idle boast when he said he could spot whch street you were born in!


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I have noticed, however, particularly in London, that accent seems less a marker of geography than it is of social status. The 'cut glass' accent is widespread, but rare. Estuary English seems to be the choice of the media classes. Sarf-east Lunnon is everywhere amongst the lower middle class, and so on. The working class, I suspect, is more easily geographically identifiable, but only because they are less likely to be mobile.

The whole subject is as you say, fascinating.


#8567 10/25/00 06:06 PM
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I met some young Irish fellers from a small rural town (forget which) a few years ago... they were working their way across the U.S. They started out in NYC, yet despite the huge Irish population there, they had some trouble understanding the local urban speech (when I met them we had a little difficulty, too, but after agreeing to slow down and share a few pints all was well ).
They wrote me later to tell me that when they hit the Appalachian mountains (a relatively poor section of the Eastern US, much of which was settled by the Irish) they found they could understand almost all and were amazed at the expressions they heard that were current both in that rural area and in their rural hometown. There are many pockets in Appalachia even today that are geographically/economically isolated linguistic communities, with expression that date back to the Elizabethan era (no, I can't think of a single example right now). You'll also notice the similarity between bluegrass and Irish music.


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>London - accent seems less a marker of geography than it is of social status

The difference with London and say, Nottingham is that very few people you meet in London originate there. The taxi drivers and typists come in every day from Essex or Kent or whichever part of the estuary is closer. The media types probably come from Cumbria, Edinburgh or Manchester. If you are in a famous London teaching hospital many of the staff will be from the West Indies or India. It's a great big melting pot.

I'm sure the same would be true of other world cities. I wonder how many of the people in top jobs in New York were born there?

Regional accents in the UK do tend to be very local. Manchester, where I went to school, had a range of accents which seemed to change every five miles or so, add a few Asian and Caribbean variations and the range was huge.


#8569 10/25/00 07:11 PM
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>pockets in Appalachia

Which goes back to Bill Bryson's book, saying that so much of America was isolated that many of the expressions are much older than those in use in their country of origin in the present day.


#8570 10/25/00 08:03 PM
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Both my parent are immigrants to NY from Dublin, and when I told my mother that I had been complimented on my clear pronunciation, and lack of NY errors (adding R's where none belong, and removing them from where they are, the NY variant of cockney H) she was non plussed--She was of the opinion that Dublin English was the richest and most refined of all!

But while still a child, (under 18) I met a man I would eventually marry (and divorce!) and used what I thought was a common word. He looked at me and said, "No such word" the argument was a draw; I found the word in the OED, but the OED said "Archaic". I stopped using the word.


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>I wonder how many of the people in top jobs in New York were born there?<

US census data has about 40% of NYC residents born in other US states,
and 30% from other countries...
No real numbers available on "illegals", obviously!



#8572 10/25/00 08:38 PM
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>She was of the opinion that Dublin English was the richest and most refined of all!

Sounds fair enough to me.

>OED said "Archaic". I stopped using the word

Sounds like a good argument for keeping the word, losing the man! (Join the campaign for archaic words in common use, look what it did for tsuwm!)



#8573 10/25/00 09:43 PM
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But what was the word, my fair colleen?


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