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#8 - 03/13/00 04:31 PM Words from newspapers of the world
Wordsmith Offline


member

Registered: 03/12/00
Posts: 123
English is a global language. With the rise of electronic communication,
worldwide trade and international travel, its status has far surpassed
that of a link language. English is equated with success. Wherever you go--
from the luxuriant rain-forests of Costa Rica to the untamed wilds of
Serengeti to the hodgepodge of Eastern bazaars--you're sure to find someone
who speaks English albeit in an accent far different from yours. If nothing
else, English makes a disguised appearance in hybrids such as Franglais,
Spanglish, Hindlish, etc.

Of course, this rise in popularity of English is not without a downside.
Talk with someone for whom English is not a first language and you sense
a feeling of loss. Reactions vary the gamut--from the trace of helplessness
of parents whose children can't appreciate a poem in their native language,
to lawmakers making it mandatory for a company to also have a Web site in
the language of their country before the company can do business there.

What do you think? I'd love to hear from you about this subject whether
English is your first language or not. Post your messages in this bulletin
board and this week taste some words taken from newspapers of the world.



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#9 - 03/13/00 07:45 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
rbowen Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/13/00
Posts: 1
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Growing up in Kenya, it was interesting to see the reaction when people
found out that English was my first language. Some folks thought that it
was rather sad not to have a "mother tongue", because the mother tongue
is what gives you identity, and defined what "home" means. "I speak
English with you, but when I am home, I speak Kipsigis." To know only
English is to not have any heart language - you have to speak work-talk
and market-talk when you are with your loved ones. How impersonal.

It is deeply sad, I think, when parents don't teach their children their
mother tongue. It may seem unnecessary, and even impractical to them.
However, when a culture is lost, there's no way to regain it. And when a
language is extinct, there's no way to bring it back.

By telling the world that they have to know English to succeed, we've
killed many languages, and cultures, and changed others irretrievably.
It's very sad. And when I hear people refer to their own language, and
culture, disparagingly, that's very sad also. And, I find it sad that I
lost my distinct culture and language 6 or 8 generations ago. I would
love to speak Welsh, and know all about the Clan Bowen, but, alas, we
know almost nothing about the clan, and don't speak the language.

Rich


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#10 - 03/14/00 06:57 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
Austri Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/14/00
Posts: 2
Loc: Pasay City, Philippines
I am from the Philippines. English is our 2nd language since the American came in 1896. I would like to know what you mean by Thread View 64 in the message index? I thought it was the number of threads or the number of words use.

Please explain.


Austri G. Basinillo
Philippines
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Austri G. Basinillo
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#11 - 03/15/00 02:41 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
Jeanne Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 2
Loc: MA
Your words ring very true. In my culture, our Ancestral tongue was Yiddish. By the generation of my grandparents, it was used only to keep the children from understanding. By my Mother's generation she knows only some of the common expressions. I know even fewer of the expressions.

Parents, please expose your children to other languages and to your own native tongue. They will never be more open to learning languages than when they are really young and it will enrich their lives forever.


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#12 - 03/16/00 05:42 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
My background includes having grown up in India, exposed to about four languages (besides English) on a regular basis: my 'mother' tongue - Malayalam; the 'national' language - Hindi; the state language - Marathi; and the language of the trustees who set up our school - Gujarati. I can only claim any literacy in Hindi, however, since I received the most formal training in that language.

Since my first language is English, I suppose I slip into the English arrogance/imperialistic attitude from time to time, and my opinions may well be coloured by that fact. I believe, however, that while the ongoing loss of linguistic diversity is sad, we would be ill advised to reject English on the basis of the need to retain identity or diversity.

The problem with cultural identity (and perhaps this is a wider subject than this forum may allow) appears to me to be identical (depending upon one's stance on this) with that of xenophobia: you cannot distinguish a cultural identity unless you show how some (or the majority) are excluded from that group. This, in my opinion, is one of the leading causes of the xenophobia that has resulted in the internecine conflicts that we still seem to see only too often (Yugoslavia, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland etc).

I do not believe we can eliminate this 'exclusiveness' all together, nor that it would necessarily be a good thing. But I think it would be worth our while to mitigate its effects as much as we reasonably can. Unfortunately, the 'our mother tongue must thrive' brigade often seem to me to miss this point. Yes I regret, to a certain extent, the fact that I am not fluent in, nor literate in, Malayalam. But if I were offered that fluency and literacy as an alternative to the fluency and literacy have in English, then I would reject the offer. I am all for expanded horizons - but not when so many of these promises appear to be at the cost of actually limiting the horizons of those who 'should be native speakers' of a particular tongue.

My apologies if all this sounds a touch convoluted or disjointed. I suppose I might have summarised it as: keep English, but learn other languages by all means.

cheer

the sunshine warrior


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#13 - 03/19/00 04:22 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
emanuela Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 315
Loc: Italy - Perugia is a town with...
I am Italian, and Iearned my (poor) English mostly during a funny love with an American man.
This has been an interesting experience: there are things which can be explained easily in another language - "ocean", for example, but we had a problem with "groundhog".
Differences in languages often show cultural differences: for example, in Italian there is not an immediate translation of " I care", but there is one for "I absolutely don't care"!
I am enjoing now the quotes in the AWAD- archives, but in those translated from latin languages I feel sometimes that something is lost...
Even I like languages and words, I think that the language is not a perfect tool to understand and to communicate. Let me add a quote (Zen)
"The way which can be spoken is not the Way"


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#14 - 03/19/00 11:58 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
aja Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/17/00
Posts: 6

It is my observation,that an accent is considered the equivalent of a handicap.For the same reason that an American does not inquire about a person's limp,that individual will not ask about the origin of an accent.
Is it a lack of interest,a measure of ignorance,or is it out of fear for stepping on unsollicited turf? After having spent many years in different countries,I still am pleasantly surprised,when somebody candidly acknowledges my accent.I wonder if my observation is a shared one?


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#15 - 03/22/00 07:49 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1981
Regarding accents - I find them fascinating and often ask about an unusual accent. Am I politically incorrect?

In the UK the BBC, for example, has made a real effort to bring regional accents onto the radio and television. In these times of inverted snobbery I always consider my vaguely northen accent an asset and those born with a plum in their mouths find their offspring trading down to what is known as "Estuary English" - Sarf London and lots of glottal stops. Is there the same trend elsewhere?


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#16 - 03/25/00 04:29 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
aumflower Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 1
Loc: UK
Jeanne,
I'm in exactly the same situation. Yiddish was the native tongue of my Great-Grandparents. My Grandparents spoke it fluently, as a second language, but crucially, 'NOT IN FRONT OF THE CHILDREN'. My parents only picked up a few common phrases, and I only know a few words.
This is a very sad situation and it is even sadder if other languages go the same way as Yiddish.
Incidentally, I don't know if you're aware of an excellent book: 'The Joys of Yiddish' by Leo Rosten.


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#17 - 03/28/00 08:18 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
conscious Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 7
I often inquire as to someone's accent. I really enjoy following up on finding out more about that person and the area he/she comes from, and this is a perfect way to get in to it. I never thought of it as politically incorrect, but I must say, I did cringe when Jimmy Carter used to pronounce "nuclear" nucular. Of course, this could have been plain old mispronunciation. Bill Clinton has his moments too. I think some accents change the language more than others, and a southern accent in the U.S. certainly tops the list.


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#18 - 04/03/00 06:48 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
Hallyx Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 9
Loc: Southern CA
With you all the way, Shanks. At the risk of seeming politically incorrect, the most efficient way for an individual to participate in the global economy is for her to be fluent in its basic language. In that regard, English is as good as any and better than most.

It may be nice to have a regional patois or "Mother Tongue" to enhance the feeling of belonging to your particular tribe or nationality. But adhering to it at the expense of a firm and comfortable command of English handicaps the speaker in the important areas of science, economics and transportation, among others.

Having said that, it is my considered opinion that, due to impending energy limitations in the next several decades, we will likely experience a reversal of this newly-won "globalization", progressing more towards balkanisation or regionalism. Whether English will retain its prominence in a world less economically connected is anyone's guess.

I think a good argument can be made for both sides of this issue. And I find this discussion very worthwhile and extremely interesting.

Hallyx

"A time will come when men will sit with history before them
or with some old newspaper before them and ask incredulously,
'Was there ever such a world?'"
--- H.G. Wells (The Open Conspiracy)


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#19 - 04/03/00 08:30 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
shanks Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 1004
Loc: London, UK
Glad to know someone agrees with me :-)

I find your contention that the world will probably beome Balkanised, due to energy limitiations, an interesting one. Whilst this is not on-topic for this board, please feel free to e-mail me about it if you would like to. My thoughts on this matter are seemingly slightly different from yours, whilst not necessarily being directly opposed to to them.

cheer

the sunshine warrior


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#20 - 04/08/00 10:14 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
Jackie Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 11609
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
I must agree that certain Southern U.S. pronunciations can change the language. My aunt and uncle in Tennessee had an exchange student from Finland, and when my aunt would, for ex., mention her "furs", the student would look around for something fuzzy. On the other hand...in Junior High School, we got a new teacher, from New York, and for a long
time I thought there was a make of car called Porsch-er!


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#21 - 06/20/00 01:22 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
Bingley Offline
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Registered: 04/09/00
Posts: 3065
Loc: Jakarta
Just a thought Shanks, but of the conflicts you mention, the two sides in Northern Ireland both speak English, and the Serb and Croat languages are, I gather, almost identical except that one uses the Roman alphabet and the other the Cyrillic (I forget which is which). I don't know about the situation in Sri Lanka. Do Tamils and Sinhalese speak different languages?

Anyway, my point is I don't think that even if everyone spoke the same language it would necessarily reduce the amount of conflict in the world. If you speak the same language you can find more to disagree about! It does seem to be the trend now more and more for wars to be civil wars rather than international ones.

Bingley
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#22 - 06/21/00 11:10 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
woodbeez Offline
stranger

Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 2
Loc: Germany
I wish they made English the 2nd official language everywhere around the world! Would make things so much easier for people. But you know what, it ain't never gonna happen. Even though many Germans of my generation (thirtysomethings) speak English fairly well, all American TV shows in Germany are dubbed. I keep thinking if they weren't, my English would be a lot better now, since I have been a TV addict since early childhood. Hehe.. Maybe the Germans could even live with English as a 2nd language - I heard that in some German kindergarten schools they are already starting to teach English.


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#23 - 06/22/00 01:45 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
wsieber Online   content
old hand

Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 1026
Loc: Switzerland
Just by way of contrast, from the site http://www.educationunlimited.co.uk/specialreports/educationincrisis/story/0,5500,84128,00.html (found through a post in another thread) I got the information, concerning a school in England,
"At Fir Vale School, which has taken over from Earl Marshall, the headteacher Ken Cook has a pupil body of whom only 16% speak English as their first language. Most of the parents speak no English at all. "


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#24 - 05/20/05 08:15 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
Marz Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1
Luckily, I had English spoken to me as a sprog although Spanish is everybody's mother tongue in Argentina. I consider myself fortunate now cos this is wot I do for a living; I'm an English teacher. More and more Argentinians are beginning to learn English in order to get a better job or to work abroad. I presume English will become Argentina's second official language in the long run ... but only time will tell.


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#25 - 05/21/05 06:55 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
welcome to the board, Marz.

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#26 - 05/24/05 11:37 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
dxb Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 1692
Loc: UK
...and thanks for bringing this interesting discussion back into the light of day!

It would be interesting to hear more views on these issues.


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#27 - 05/24/05 06:47 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
...and thanks for bringing this interesting discussion back into the light of day!
I agree dxb.
My high school teacher told us the French expression that "You are as many times a person as languages you know." You cannot learn a language without learning about the culture. And IMO the more you learn about other cultures the wider your mind will be and the better you will be at judging your own culture and what it takes for granted.
I love to travel and I try to learn at least how to be polite in the language of that country. Partly to be respectful and acknowledge that it is their home not mine and partly because when I do the culture seems to open a little wider and let me just a little further into it's life.

Not to condone the culturecide that is occurring but I have to point out that it is not new. From the Spanish origins of Tagalog, to the Norman invasion of England and probably back to the Babylonians every empire has tried to impose it's own language as the language of the educated or the upper class. Certainly as the language of prosperity.


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#28 - 05/28/05 12:09 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
musick Offline
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
You cannot learn a language without learning about the culture. And IMO the more you learn about other cultures the wider your mind will be and the better you will be at judging your own culture and what it takes for granted.

I agree, whole-heartedly, however, does this mean the US takes its lack of one specific culture for granted... possibly taking diversity for granted... or is *it just continually confused?


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#29 - 05/31/05 06:59 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
I'll let a US'n answer for themselves. I think many Canadians esp. in smaller towns see Canada as having a culture with multiculturalism as the extras. Your basic steak and potatoes with a choice of buerre blanc, hoisin worcestershire or salsa. Those in areas with a larger immigrant population take for granted that the whole multicultural smorgesbord is part of our culture.


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#30 - 02/26/07 09:07 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world
Curuinor Offline
journeyman

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 72
Loc: Land where ne'er-do-wells rule...
British culture, with modernization and a whole lot of extra sprinklings. That is America.
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#170255 - 09/29/07 03:55 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: Curuinor]
BranShea Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
I'm quite convinced that English is the most adaquate choice for being a global language.
I've read the newspaper daily while staying in your country and when I compare "obit" to our word "overlijdensberichten " when it's about obituaries it's pretty obvious who wins.

That's what made me wonder about an expression I read a lot:
"state-of-the-art" ... such and so.This seems to me leading to the opposite direction. Loosing adaquateness. Why not simply "the actual best". All those hyphens make for longer time writing.I think it a pretty pretentious and needlessly long expression.

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#170256 - 09/29/07 04:27 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: BranShea]
zmjezhd Offline
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Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
"state-of-the-art"

But, it's a nice choriamb. Actual best reminds me of also ran.
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#170263 - 09/30/07 07:48 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: zmjezhd]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
sota
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#170269 - 09/30/07 02:36 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: zmjezhd]
BranShea Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Choriamb definition:
4-syllable poetic foot: a poetic foot consisting of two short syllables between two long ones or two unstressed syllables between two stressed ones.

't's all new to me.

And sota? eta? sounds like a Japanese noodle soup.

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#170271 - 09/30/07 02:47 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: BranShea]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 7210
Loc: Vermont
StateOfTheArt
SOTA.
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#183206 - 03/04/09 02:56 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: conscious]
K_D Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 9
Loc: Singapore
In my opinion, language is a tool which carries forward the cultural values across generations. If Language is given less importance, ultimately the cultural values diminish over time.

I basically hail from South India, and my mother tongue is Tamil. I went abroad to pursue my university education. It was sad to note that many friends of mine who where originally speakers of Tamil, couldn't converse well in Tamil just because their parents insisted from the early age to use English at all levels(even at home). Also they patronized the West more, by means of watching American Sitcoms, shows, movies etc. I could see them losing their cultural identity over time.

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#183211 - 03/04/09 04:10 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: K_D]
BranShea Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
In that post five boxes up I should have said "lingua franca" in stead of "global language". I agree with you that it is very important to keep native languages alive. If only for the richness and fun of it. But English definitely was the easiest language to learn as a second language. (don't know how it is for Tamil speaking people)

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#183240 - 03/05/09 02:53 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: BranShea]
K_D Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 9
Loc: Singapore
Yes ! I agree with u totally BranShea. English was very easy to learn as second language. But my point is that, parents should also emphazie to their children the importance of knowing how to converse fluently in their first Language as it provides them with an identity.

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#183244 - 03/05/09 06:59 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: K_D]
BranShea Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Agree, converse, write, spelling and grammar. All very good to have it well settled before learning a foreign language. But this complaint about bad homeland language- teaching seems to be general. Here usuallly children start at 8 or 9 with a second language. By then the native tongue should be well understood. Alas it rarely is.


Edited by BranShea (03/05/09 07:21 AM)

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#183261 - 03/05/09 07:15 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: K_D]
PastorVon Offline
member

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: K_D
In my opinion, language is a tool which carries forward the cultural values across generations. If Language is given less importance, ultimately the cultural values diminish over time.

I basically hail from South India, and my mother tongue is Tamil. I went abroad to pursue my university education. It was sad to note that many friends of mine who where originally speakers of Tamil, couldn't converse well in Tamil just because their parents insisted from the early age to use English at all levels(even at home). Also they patronized the West more, by means of watching American Sitcoms, shows, movies etc. I could see them losing their cultural identity over time.



On the "Hathaway" side of the family, I am a 12th generation American -- eligible for membership in the Mayflower Society -- fortunately, I'm not much of a joiner.

On the "Vaughn" side of the family, I am only a 3rd generation American. "Vaughn" came from my paternal grandmother's maiden name, which was Von Gruenigen, sometimes spelled in the US without the space. Her father was from Bern, Switzerland. Her mother was from Hamburg, Germany. Both German and English were spoken in the home. Because my mother died when I was quite young, I grew up in my grand mother's home. While I learned enough German from her that I can read it somewhat, I didn't learn to converse in the language. I wish that I had. My father didn't either.

I think it is a mistake for an immigrant family to abandon their native language completely upon moving to a country where another language is predominant. While it is certainly important to learn the language of their new country, the maintenance of the native language aids the preservation of a family's culture.

I have attempted with varying degrees of success to inculcate in my children an appreciation for where we came from. The Hathaway name can be traced to the Doomsday Book in England. My wife's maiden name can be traced to the potato famine immigrations to America. My paternal grandmother's mother was an indentured servant when she came to America (She was only five; but her entire family was indentured. Her parents did not survive the journey and so she and her surviving sister were farmed out to two different sponsoring families. My great-grandmother's "sponsor" adopted her. Her sister's "sponsor" did not.) I inherited my grandmother's cook book. It has a number of recipes in it that can be traced to the Hebrock family from Hamburg from more than 150 years ago. I have my grandmother's German catechism and hymnal from the 1890s. Therefore, some of our cultural heritage has been preserved. BTW, I don't trumpet the roots of the Von Gruenigens very much. They were closely related to Fredrich Willhelm at whose feet many lay the blame for World War I.)

Excuse the rambling thoughts.

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#183262 - 03/05/09 07:26 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: BranShea]
PastorVon Offline
member

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: BranShea
In that post five boxes up I should have said "lingua franca" in stead of "global language". I agree with you that it is very important to keep native languages alive. If only for the richness and fun of it. But English definitely was the easiest language to learn as a second language. (don't know how it is for Tamil speaking people)


Isn't it ironic that you had to use a French -- or is it Latin? -- term to describe what English has become? But, IMO, it was an excellent comment or observation because it reminds us that the "global language" does not necessarily remain such forever.

In the occident, Greek was the "lingua franca" during the time of the Roman Empire, followed by Latin, then French. Now, it is English. If the world-wide economic crisis instigates the rise of a new predominant world-leader, how long will English remain such? Should we be studying Chinese?

IMO, BTW, the change from Latin to French in the occident indicated a lessening of the influence of the church on the world and the rise of the state. French became the language of the courts and of diplomacy and thus became the "global language" of its day. The British Empire, World War I and World War II brought about the predominance of English.

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#183312 - 03/07/09 11:13 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: PastorVon]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6591
Loc: Land of the Flat Water

Bi-lingualism rips Canada. We don't have a national language.
English is being replaced, much less talking about global
language.


Edited by LukeJavan8 (03/07/09 11:13 AM)
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#183319 - 03/07/09 01:01 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: PastorVon]
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
Originally Posted By: PastorVon


Isn't it ironic that you had to use a French -- or is it Latin?



Whatever language we stole it from, it's English now. But that's just why English is such a universal language, Almost everybody has a little corner they can feel at home in.

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#183332 - 03/07/09 06:27 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: Faldage]
BranShea Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
It's only a few steps away from Esperanto (joking )

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#183334 - 03/07/09 06:37 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: BranShea]
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
And we all know how universal Esperanto is.

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#183335 - 03/07/09 06:59 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: LukeJavan8]
latishya Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 390
Loc: कहीं &...
Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8

Bi-lingualism rips Canada. We don't have a national language.
English is being replaced, much less talking about global
language.


"English is being replaced" With what? What is Canada replacing English with?

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#183349 - 03/08/09 01:21 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: latishya]
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2154
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
I think bi-( let alone multi-) lingualism enriches Canada rather than ripping it. After all the English were just one of the immigrant groups, and not the first either. ( In my part of Canada there are more native speakers of Mandarin and Punjabi than of French but English is going strong. )

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#183366 - 03/08/09 09:24 AM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: PastorVon]
zmjezhd Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 3290
Loc: R'lyeh
Isn't it ironic that you had to use a French -- or is it Latin? -- term to describe what English has become?

Lingua Franca is Latin for the Frankish language, aka Sabir (link), a kind of pidgin used in the Mediterranean and based on Italian.
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#183377 - 03/08/09 01:14 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: zmjezhd]
LukeJavan8 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 6591
Loc: Land of the Flat Water


We don't have a national language.
Replacement: Spanish.
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#183382 - 03/08/09 02:16 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: zmjezhd]
BranShea Offline
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The Lingua franca of the Mediterranean or Sabir ("know") was a pidgin language used as a Lingua franca in the Mediterranean Basin from the 11th to the 19th century and is the original basis for the word lingua franca.

I know the comparison is slightly askew, but reading this makes me think of a doorbell used as a doorbell.
( unlike the other ones mentioned such as papiamento etc.)
Welcome back.

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#183384 - 03/08/09 03:20 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: LukeJavan8]
latishya Offline
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Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 390
Loc: कहीं &...
Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8


We don't have a national language.


That is a very good thing of course. Canada does have two offical though languages though does it not?

Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8
Replacement: Spanish.
Spanish is replacing English in Canada? Is that serious, or just xenophobia talking?

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#183389 - 03/08/09 04:28 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: latishya]
olly Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 956
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
New Zealand has Three official languages. English, Maori, and NZ sign language. A gardening programme on TV featured all three simultaneously. Spoken Maori, English subtitles, and a person signing in an inset. Interesting to watch. The programme was about traditional maori planting techniques.

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#183393 - 03/08/09 05:53 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: Zed]
PastorVon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Zed
I think bi-( let alone multi-) lingualism enriches Canada rather than ripping it. After all the English were just one of the immigrant groups, and not the first either. ( In my part of Canada there are more native speakers of Mandarin and Punjabi than of French but English is going strong. )



The USA does not have an official language either although there have been repeated attempts to make English such. In my locale, English and Spanish are predominant although there are some Asian languages as well. Many of the public schools have a bi-lingual approach using both English and Spanish.

But the one that bemuses me the most is the Braile on drive-through ATMs. ?!

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#183400 - 03/08/09 08:31 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: PastorVon]
Faldage Offline
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Originally Posted By: PastorVon

But the one that bemuses me the most is the Braile on drive-through ATMs. ?!


You would rather they have to go to the expense of making separate keypads for drive-through ATMs and walk-up ATMs. Not to mention the simple fact that a blind person can sit in the back seat of a car on the driver's side and operate the ATM from there.

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#183405 - 03/09/09 10:29 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: Faldage]
PastorVon Offline
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Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: PastorVon

But the one that bemuses me the most is the Braile on drive-through ATMs. ?!


You would rather they have to go to the expense of making separate keypads for drive-through ATMs and walk-up ATMs. Not to mention the simple fact that a blind person can sit in the back seat of a car on the driver's side and operate the ATM from there.


No. Actually, I was not thinking of the keypads. I was picturing a blind person driving.

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#183429 - 03/09/09 07:06 PM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: PastorVon]
Faldage Offline
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Originally Posted By: PastorVon
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: PastorVon

But the one that bemuses me the most is the Braile on drive-through ATMs. ?!


You would rather they have to go to the expense of making separate keypads for drive-through ATMs and walk-up ATMs. Not to mention the simple fact that a blind person can sit in the back seat of a car on the driver's side and operate the ATM from there.


No. Actually, I was not thinking of the keypads. I was picturing a blind person driving.


Well, there you go. Then maybe you've never driven in Boston.

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#183544 - 03/12/09 11:15 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: BranShea]
zmjezhd Offline
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Welcome back.

Thanks, Brannie. It was fun listening to the Flemish speakers in Belgium. I'd start off asking something in my halting French, they would answer in Flemish, I'd switch to German, and they'd finish in English. The beer and chocolate were great though in any language and on every tongue.
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#183545 - 03/12/09 11:18 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: zmjezhd]
tsuwm Offline
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I've really developed a taste for beer and chocolate - dark chocolate, but not dark beer.

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#183557 - 03/13/09 11:15 AM Re: Words from newspapers of the world [Re: Faldage]
PastorVon Offline
member

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: PastorVon
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: PastorVon

But the one that bemuses me the most is the Braile on drive-through ATMs. ?!


You would rather they have to go to the expense of making separate keypads for drive-through ATMs and walk-up ATMs. Not to mention the simple fact that a blind person can sit in the back seat of a car on the driver's side and operate the ATM from there.


No. Actually, I was not thinking of the keypads. I was picturing a blind person driving.


Well, there you go. Then maybe you've never driven in Boston.


No, I have not. However, I have driven in the "City of Brotherly Shove" otherwise known as Philadelphia. And, now, I must drive in the city that claims to be the home of NASCAR.

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#183563 - 03/13/09 12:33 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: tsuwm]
zmjezhd Offline
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I've really developed a taste for beer and chocolate - dark chocolate, but not dark beer.

Not at the same time, Ron O., then but you knew that. I did try a nice Gueuze. I liked Leffe Brune. I bought one on the Thalys, and the conductor stopped me walking back from the dining wagon saying something in Flemish. He switched to French and told me he appreciated me buying him a Leffe but he was on duty and couldn't accept it. The Leffe Blonde was pretty good, too.

You can get Leffe and Duvel in France now. I found them more pleasing than Kronenbourg.
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#183564 - 03/13/09 12:57 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: zmjezhd]
twosleepy Offline
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Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 876
Loc: western NY
zmjezhd: Where'd you get "ferengi"? I only know that word from Star Trek. It's an alien race introduced in TNG. :0)

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#183565 - 03/13/09 01:08 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: zmjezhd]
tsuwm Offline
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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
I've really developed a taste for beer and chocolate - dark chocolate, but not dark beer.

Not at the same time, Ron O., then but you knew that.


no, really. cool
-ron o.

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#183567 - 03/13/09 01:24 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: twosleepy]
zmjezhd Offline
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Where'd you get "ferengi"?

Same place the writers for ST:TNG got it: history (link).
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Ceci n'est pas un seing.

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#183568 - 03/13/09 01:32 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: zmjezhd]
twosleepy Offline
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Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 876
Loc: western NY
So were you referring to the ST race? I am thinking so because of your "pesky" description... Interesting article, but I don't understand what the band Banco de Gaia has do with it... Thanks! :0)

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#183569 - 03/13/09 02:28 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: twosleepy]
zmjezhd Offline
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Registered: 08/13/05
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So were you referring to the ST race?

Yes and no. I used it in conjunction with the discussion about linguae francae, but the ST species, the Ferengi, also played into my choice.

Banco de Gaia has to do with it

Me neither. (Or, I also.)
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#183602 - 03/15/09 12:36 AM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: zmjezhd]
latishya Offline
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Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 390
Loc: कहीं &...
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
Where'd you get "ferengi"?

Same place the writers for ST:TNG got it: history (link).


Is the consonantal similarity between firangi and foreign just coincidence?

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#183604 - 03/15/09 08:05 AM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: latishya]
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
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Originally Posted By: latishya
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
Where'd you get "ferengi"?

Same place the writers for ST:TNG got it: history (link).


Is the consonantal similarity between firangi and foreign just coincidence?


Yup. For one thing, the G in foreign wasn't added till after ME. The word is from Latin foranus. Feringhi is from Frank from Latin francus, ultimately of Germanic origin.

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#183610 - 03/15/09 03:16 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: tsuwm]
BranShea Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
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Chocolate on my mind since it was mentioned by DZjeem. In the sixties-seventies my husband used to take home Godiva chocolates from chocodrome Brussels. Only just now I learn that Godiva is since quite a while no longer Belgian at all. Maybe that's what changed the taste. Now one of the favorites is a handmade Australian chocolate.

Godiva

Never knew what chocolate had to do with the Godiva legend.

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#183616 - 03/15/09 06:17 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: BranShea]
olly Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 956
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Originally Posted By: BranShea
Only just now I learn that Godiva is since quite a while no longer Belgian at all. Maybe that's what changed the taste.


The justification for profit is profit
Ferengi rule of aquisition number 202

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#183617 - 03/15/09 06:18 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: Faldage]
latishya Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 390
Loc: कहीं &...
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: latishya
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
Where'd you get "ferengi"?

Same place the writers for ST:TNG got it: history (link).


Is the consonantal similarity between firangi and foreign just coincidence?


Yup. For one thing, the G in foreign wasn't added till after ME. The word is from Latin foranus. Feringhi is from Frank from Latin francus, ultimately of Germanic origin.


Thank you.

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#183633 - 03/16/09 01:12 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: BranShea]
LukeJavan8 Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
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Originally Posted By: BranShea
Chocolate on my mind since it was mentioned by DZjeem. In the sixties-seventies my husband used to take home Godiva chocolates from chocodrome Brussels. Only just now I learn that Godiva is since quite a while no longer Belgian at all. Maybe that's what changed the taste. Now one of the favorites is a handmade Australian chocolate.

Godiva

Never knew what chocolate had to do with the Godiva legend.


Neither did I! I love the big old clock in Coventry. Quite a legend, if legend it be.
_________________________
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#183635 - 03/16/09 01:31 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: LukeJavan8]
Buffalo Shrdlu Offline
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Registered: 06/24/02
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Loc: Vermont
naked women and chocolate. what's to not understand?

; )
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formerly known as etaoin...

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#183649 - 03/16/09 07:00 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
Faldage Offline
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Registered: 12/01/00
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Godiva is from OE godgifu, 'God's gift'. The active ingredient in chocolate is theobromine; close enough in my book.

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#183651 - 03/16/09 07:51 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: Faldage]
zmjezhd Offline
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Registered: 08/13/05
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OE godgifu, 'God's gift'

German Gift 'poison' (cf. English dose).

theobromine

From Greek theos 'god' + broma 'food'.
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Ceci n'est pas un seing.

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#183660 - 03/17/09 05:03 PM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: LukeJavan8]
BranShea Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8

Quite a legend, if legend it be.
Link

godgifu- interesting contradiction.

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#183668 - 03/18/09 01:42 AM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: BranShea]
PastorVon Offline
member

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 107
Loc: USA, North Carolina
Originally Posted By: BranShea
Chocolate on my mind since it was mentioned by DZjeem. In the sixties-seventies my husband used to take home Godiva chocolates from chocodrome Brussels. Only just now I learn that Godiva is since quite a while no longer Belgian at all. Maybe that's what changed the taste. Now one of the favorites is a handmade Australian chocolate.


During World War II, my sister and I were favorites on the block because our dad, who was stationed in the South Pacific, sent us Australian chocolate periodically. We were the only kids on the block who had chocolate throughout the war. We shared it out. It was rich and dark. Sometimes the surface was dusted with alkali powder that had leached out in transit. But we just brushed it off and ignored it.

There is a scene in "Band of Brothers" that occurred during Operation Market-Garden. An American G.I. shares some of his chocolate candy ration with a young Dutch child, whose father says that his child had never had chocolate candy before. Isn't the Netherlands right next door to Belgium?

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#183670 - 03/18/09 05:14 AM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: PastorVon]
BranShea Offline
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Registered: 06/23/06
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Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Isn't the Netherlands right next door to Belgium?

You could call it a duplex.


Edited by BranShea (03/18/09 05:16 AM)

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#183677 - 03/18/09 09:02 AM Re: those pesky Ferengi [Re: PastorVon]
zmjezhd Offline
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Registered: 08/13/05
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Isn't the Netherlands right next door to Belgium?

Probably the point of the scene.
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