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#76563 - 08/11/02 09:27 PM Re: Silverado/Why don't you come to your senses?
WhitmanO'Neill Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 4189
Loc: Rio Grande, Cape May County, N...
40 to 400 million? billion?...don't be surprised...if the figure seems too flamboyant, then reduce it, by all means...but no creedence need be given...it's a documented fact.

http://kings.edu/~twsawyer/frankly/SS1.html

http://www.charm.net/~marc/chronicle/media_dec98.html

http://www.motherjones.com/news_wire/bushboys.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO202C.html

Oh, and ENRON's Cliff Baxter didn't work within the government, TEd, he was a private businessman...but, then again, if what you're saying is that ENRON is the government, well, then, maybe you've got something there.



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#76564 - 08/12/02 09:52 AM Re: off by heart
belligerentyouth Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 1055
Loc: Berlin
During my absence Ted wrote:
You can look away and say that the majority of Muslims are peaceful, friendly folk, and that they obviously do not pose a threat to you. In the long run you will be annihilated by these radicals if you do not resist them. There is no middle ground on this. None.
I sense that you don't believe that such a thing can actually happen. Not too far back in history far too many Jews, Roms, homosexuals, et alia, all believed that the Nazis couldn't REALLY be so inhumane as to murder them and use their bodies for diabolical medical experiments.


Ted, I think the great threat to positive developments in the current world predicament comes from *both sides of this fundamentalist clash. And the side that worries me the most isn't that of the extremists Muslims - it's that of the U.S. industro-military government. For they have the most power. They have all the balls [sic] in their court. Sure, I could look away and say that the majority of Americans are peaceful, friendly folk, and that they obviously do not pose a threat to me. In the long run though, they might threaten to play a key role in annihilating mankind's chance at positive development by allowing these few radicals bearing a handful of vested interests to rule. Ignore this at your own peril, world.[g]
I jest slightly, but seen in this light, one must assume that if Ted and Rous. were Muslims, say in Palestine, they would fully approve of, if not applaud the WTC terrorist attacks of last year and others like them. Odd to think of it that way, isn’t it?

As to your question of what I would do if extremists Muslims attacked 'my' country.
I’m not much for hypotheticals really, especially when sitting in a country with a decent size Muslim population. I certainly wouldn’t be fighting along side other Muslim Germans against the ‘great evil’ that is Islam. Nobody is going to talk me into war! ‘Oh, but what if’….? – What if what! This is not 1939, ‘my’ country is not being attacked, nor ‘my’ ‘civilisation’. Mindless military exponents should fly their flags and die for their flags – but I’ll live without one, thanks, I don't have a country and I think little of 'countries', per se. Let's be honest, the whole concept is dreadfully outdated. Hang on to it if you must, like biologists cling to that fouling Darwinist dogma as if sent from heaven, but it's getting us nowhere.
The truth is that my continual displacement in life has made me more conscious of that which I'm not, than that which I am. I see any violence as an attack on us all, because I can’t pretend to be a certain something I’m not. I couldn’t honestly describe myself as German or Australian, or British or European, even if I wanted to. My positive feeling of personal identity comes from the diversity I've experienced not the habitual traditions, rituals, and conventions. I have, as such, been forced to relearn things over and over again; customs, conversation and social conventions. I've been forced to realise how completely arbitrary these things are. Class, race, religion and the like are all just a thin facade behind which we are all exceedingly similar. Clearly you and those extremist Muslims are too, Ted! Both factions here are underpinned by the same types of misconceptions, misunderstandings and prejudice.
Constantly underlining our differences in order to feel special and build our egos is temps perdi. After playing so many parts - trying to mimic that which is expected of me, I have, like many, had the chance to be able, to some extent, collapse all that shite in on itself. The more each of us strives for this the better off we’ll be, I’m sure. We are all no doubt indelibly marked by that which we've seen, the 'culture' that defines us, but surely we should have, or rather want desperately to have a certain anticipation of that which we'll never see – and feel all sides – sense our wholeness.
I'm a bit loopy though, so don't mind me. I mean, I want to radically revalue the normative value of race and division in writing, and history, for myself. I want to wend my way back down the ladder of genetic memory and sense the unbroken chain of life that has led us here. I want to return to the source; centre myself; find divinity and hope; and raise the dead – not create them.



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#76565 - 08/12/02 09:59 AM Re: Silverado/Why don't you come to your senses?
TEd Remington Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 3467
Loc: Marion NC
WON:

As soon as I saw the Mother Jones link I knew where this was going. Not a bit of this is documentation. It's innuendo, supposition, saying since A is B and B is C, then A is D, outright lies, etc., etc.

It's stuff like this that brings grave discredit upon the good data that's out there on the internet for all to use for constructive purposes.

When I said what I said about Bush as the former head of the CIA, it was to imply that such things as the disappearance or murder of people like Baxter would not and could not happen via the CIA. People who believe otherwise don't understand the CIA. It's made up of ordinary people doing some perhaps not-so-ordinary jobs; trying to get them to take out a fellow American just because the DCI orders them to do so will not work. If you believe otherwise I suggest that it may be because you've been reading too many spy novels and too many of the sort of web sites as those you cited above as "documented fact."

Baxter's death was a suicide. You can find his suicide note out on the web if you search for it. His family has accepted his death as a suicide, so why shouldn't we?

I read the article Helen cites above from the NYT, and recommend it very highly to you. And one last thought: can you name one, just ONE, theory put forth by one of these people that has been proven to be in fact true?

Let's see, examples of conspiracies that float around pretty freely:

Marilyn Monroe was killed by the CIA. Or was it the FBI? Or did Bobby Kennedy do her in personally? There are so many theories.

JFK was killed by Castro. Or the Mafia. Or the FBI. Or the CIA. Ditto for his brother Robert.

Vince Foster was murdered by the Clintons.

Aliens landed at Roswell, NM and their bodies are preserved in alcohol at Area 39 or whatever the heck the number was.

Cliff Baxter was murdered by someone. That someone dictated a suicide note and got him to sign it before killing him.

John Paul I was murdered in his bed by some cardinals who thought he would take the Roman Church in the wrong direction.

Princess Diana was killed on the orders of someone or other because QE II did not want her half-breed baby (she WAS pregnant, wasn't she?) to be half-brother to the eventual King of England.

This is all TRIPE. Utter tripe. As are all of these conspiracy theories. Wouldn't you think that with all of the people trying to prove one of these conspiracies that they could find one they could prove?

TEd

_________________________
TEd

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#76566 - 08/12/02 10:51 AM Re: Choosing Violence--the Iraqi "Question"
Chemeng1992 Offline
member

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 131
Loc: Alabama
<<The Electoral college result gave Dubya 50.4655493482309% of the EC votes, so you're 0 for 2 in the matter of factual accuracy.>>

Details, details. Wonder what the outcome would've been if you took out all the dead democrats that voted??







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#76567 - 08/12/02 10:57 AM Re: Choosing Violence--the Iraqi "Question"
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
dead democrats

What amused me was the report that if the Republican recount scheme had been followed Gore would have won and if the Democratic one had been used it would have still gone to Bush.


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#76568 - 08/12/02 11:10 AM if you took out all the dead democrats that voted?
TEd Remington Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 3467
Loc: Marion NC
It would certainly prove that you were pretty damned hard up for a date!

_________________________
TEd

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#76569 - 08/12/02 05:56 PM Re: Silverado/Why don't you come to your senses?
WhitmanO'Neill Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 4189
Loc: Rio Grande, Cape May County, N...
I'm sorry, TEd, but these Bush business "dealings" are all factual events, including the Silverado S & L scandal and the Harken Energy "question"...here's a site with no less than 19 links to articles in solid journalistic sources including The LA Times, The Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, US News & World Report, Time, Newsweek, The Boston Globe, and other such "trite" publications, that cover and confirm these events:

http://www.campaignwatch.org/details.htm

And I don't know why you insist on linking the assasination of President Kennedy with all these other leaps of sensationalistic speculation, as if it has anything to do with all the others. I think that anyone at this point who really believed Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone is either very naive, very foolish, or very gullible...the impact and gravity of JFK's murder had, of course, a far graver impact and affect on our country, our lives, and the world, than any of the other episodes on your list (with Bobby's death placing a close, but much less intense, second). The murder of a sitting President makes the others look incidental in comparison. Even Gov. Connolly's wife, in a recent interview, insisted that the same bullet that hit her husband could not possibly have also hit JFK and she was in the car. Anyone who views the Zapruder film and and still thinks that headshot came from behind has to be, well, an idiot, IMHO.


And, Baxter, yes...the extreme "coincidence" of his untimely demise is worthy of further investigation. There were credible media (print and broadcast) follow-up reports about lapses and discrepancies in the way the case was handled by the police, the medical examiner, and others.
He was about to turn government witness in the ENRON investigation, and was too important a figure to dismiss his death out of hand as simple suicide when our government is currently peopled by ENRON cronies and associates. Far too convenient, and there's far too much at stake.


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#76570 - 08/13/02 02:40 AM Re: Silverado/Why don't you come to your senses?
Capital Kiwi Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 3146
Loc: Northamptonshire, England
If anyone remains in any doubt about JFK's assassination, I strongly suggest you spend an hour in the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas. You will leave in no doubt about what didn't happen ...

_________________________
The idiot also known as Capfka ...

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#76571 - 08/13/02 09:41 AM My senses are fine, thank you.
TEd Remington Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 3467
Loc: Marion NC
WON:

Why is it that people run to ad hominem statements like "Why don't you come to your senses?" rather than merely talking about the issues? Just because we may disagree is no reason to attempt to belittle me.

I DO know about the Bush "business dealings" over the years. I knew about each of the 19 items that was in the article you posted the URL for. I spend a whole lot of time studying current events, particularly politics. Lord knows I do not defend Bush and the little Shrub, but if you are going to post things about them please stick to the facts. Accusing the Bushes of robbing almost half a trillion dollars is reckless at best. Quoting Mother Jones as a source isn't too far off from being reckless either. Definitely the Bush family has played funny games and has played fast and loose with the truth, but the numbers certainly don’t total up to anywhere near the $400 billion you blithely threw out as truth. If I had my way they would all be run out of town on a rail, but that’s not gonna happen. The best we can do is try to make certain that the two Bushes have similar reelection failures. A rejection of Jr in 2004 would be as effective as a criminal indictment, at least from a historical perspective.

You seem to be reading some things into my statement that weren't there. I listed a bunch of conspiracy theories and asked why no one had ever been able to prove one, just one of them. I mentioned JFK's assassination and you inferred solely from my having raised that it that I was “very naive, very foolish, or very gullible.” Did I say that Oswald acted alone? Did I imply that I disbelieved the conspiracy theories? Nope. All I did was ask a question. And I didn’t get an answer.

I've stated here repeatedly that it's my firm belief that our Government does not do things like offing Cliff Baxter. Why? Because we can't do it and then cover it up successfully. How many people do you think would have to be involved to cover up the alleged murder of an Enron executive on behalf of the President of the Unites States? How long would it be before one, just one of those people, decided that he needed more money or had a falling out with one of the other principles and turned on him? No President is going to take that kind of risk. They want a positive place in history and are not about to go around ordering (or even condoning) murders for any reason, let alone for political reasons. And the people who work for the President won’t act either, because they can never be certain who’s going to turn on them.

Frankly, it's probably pretty much the same thing with JFK's murder. If Oswald was acting at the behest of an agency of the US Government, do you seriously believe that someone, somewhere, in the conspiracy would not have breathed a word of it some time in the last 39 years? And it would take at a minimum a dozen people to bring off something like that in my opinion. It’s much more likely that the conspiracy involved people in places we can’t reach to get answers: Cuba comes immediately to mind.

I renew my challenge: show me the money. Find me one incident perpetrated by our Government in secrecy the truth of which was revealed by independent investigation.

TEd

Look at Watergate. It took about five minutes after those idiots put the tape on the door latch for the whole thing to start unraveling. Too many people involved. Too many people interested in revealing the truth. And even the awesome power of the presidency could do nothing more than delaying the day of reckoning.

The very fact that no one has proved a US Government conspiracy in any of the myriad other "mysteries" is to me a pretty good indication that there are no conspiracies.



_________________________
TEd

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#76572 - 08/13/02 09:47 AM Re: My senses are fine, thank you.
Faldage Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 13803
there are no conspiracies

There are no conspiracies? There are no conspiracies?? What fun is that, if there are no conspiracies?


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