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stranger
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OP
stranger
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Hi there. Does anyone know if there is a gender-neutral term for "gentleman" as in "a gentleman's game"?
Thanks a zil,
Mel
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I don't know what you would say except "gentleperson's" game, and I don't like that! I always cringe when I read something like "peoplekind" or whatever politically correct terms are used to avoid using the word "man". Can I even say "human" without being frowned upon? Maybe its because I'm a man, but I think this kind of language change is almost as ridiculous as the "neutering" of literature that is being discussed over in the "Danger to the written word" thread. (Not that the discussion is ridiculous by any means, just the politically-correct-gone-amuck changes to literature.) I'm curious. How many of you feel that the effort to remove gender from our language is getting ridiculous?
I probably should know better than to post this potentially divisive question right now...but here it is. You can practice your ignoring if you want!
Robert
Edit: Woops! I didn't see the PC thread before I posted this!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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gender-neutral term ... as in "a gentleman's game"?
Not really needed is it? A gentleman's game - to me - a game only gentlemen (read rich) men can afford to indulge in. Like Polo or maybe Horse Racing (where you own the horse!)
Let's see would a woman's game be -- having baby? or if that's too heavy -- synchronized balletic swimming.
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enthusiast
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I've had a hunch for a while that the term gentleman is showing signs of disappearing from the language. Notice that in most public places the doors to rest rooms (that's toilets for those not prone to euphemism) are generally labeled ladies and men. The bloviating blowhards in our legislative bodies still persist in addressing one another as "the honorable gentleman from -----" and I'm not getting into the honorable part here and even refer to female colleagues as "gentlewomen." It all comes off as phony-baloney. In fact, the terms ladies and gentlemen, men and women, boys and girls haven't been used as consistent pairs for quite some time. Scott Fitzgerald wrote about men and girls at parties, and to call a group of grown-up females girls or gals is a sure way to ruffle feathers, while males don't seem to mind being called boys or guys. We seem to have more gender terms than we need in English.
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How many of you feel that the effort to remove gender from our language is getting ridiculous?
Where do people find the time to waste on this ridiculous pursuit?
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old hand
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I don't know about a gender-neutral term for "gentlemen's game" so I'm responding to Robert's post about the neutering of the language. I despise it. Perhaps it does fit in well with the PC discussion going on in another thread.....I have to say I blithely use whatever gender seems most appropriate at the time! For example, if I have a passenger in my car (a relatively rare event), I like to open the door for him/her first, before I open my own; so I always say, "I'm such a gentleman," just in case they hadn't noticed how gentlemanly my behaviour was....! Then again, I'm the lass who appreciates it when a man opens a door for her, or walks on the outside of the sidewalk when walking with her. That kind o' thing. Well - it comes down to nice manners, don't it? Manners maketh man. I once wrote a humorous piece for the local paper about gender-neutral language and how it was emasculating English. I had a fine ol' time with it, doing things like suggesting that we had better have two kinds of thick dark table syrup, moladdies as well as molasses, in case any Scots were offended....It was a little insane (as you may have guessed from the example I gave!) but I think people enjoyed it! In church, where I hadn't been for years but recently started going sporadically again, I find myself out of step with the times: I always want to stick the word "man" into the liturgy where I learned it and where it used to be, and usually wind up saying it all by myself! eg: Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from Heaven Whoops. But one of the elderly ladies my mother and I sit with says she likes to say "man" where it used to be, too, so I'm not really alone. 
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stranger
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stranger
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Or like G.O.L.F. -- Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden
(grandpa)
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I once wrote a humorous piece for the local paper about gender-neutral language and how it was emasculating English.Sounds like an appropriate piece for this thread modgod. Would there be a link to it? And I assume it would be too long to post here. Any ideas? Would love to see it.
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veteran
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veteran
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a game only gentlemen (read rich) men can afford to indulge inHiya Wise One! Disagree with you here, I think, although I am going by British (and maybe more specifically English) definitions. A gentleman isn't necessarily a rich man. It's all about manners, integrity and honour. Oh, and ideals, of course  . You'd call someone a "real gent[leman]" on account of the respect they accord to those they meet (especially to supposed inferiors). You'd also take note of how well they keep their word, as a gentleman is impeccably trustworthy. An unwritten "gentleman's agreement" could stand in place of a binding legal contract. Honour is at stake so there will be no reneging on the agreement. A "gentleman's bet" is a particular type of gentleman's agreement (similarly no third parties required), with an occasional extra variant on standard bets that little or no money is at stake. A gentleman's game, therefore, is as much - if not more - a type of game than a game played by a particular group of people (or a particular gender). It's a game that by its nature makes fixing, cheating and underhand dealing difficult if not impossible. Probably the truth is that there is no gentleman's game by this definition, but a favourite candidate locally would be cricket. Not my game, but there you have it. Golf would probably come close. Horse racing and football (meaning soccer) would once have come fairly high up the list, but probably not so much these days  . In fact, being a gentleman isn't valued as highly as once was, probably because of mistaken association with high incomes and/or privileged family backgrounds. Baby thrown out with the bath-water a bit, IMHO. As to gender, the female equivalent of gentlemen is, of course, "ladies" rather than "gentlewomen". I believe the implicit assumption is that ladies are never anything but genteel, i.e. they would always be polite and fair, and can always be trusted to keep their word. And who are we to argue with our forebears? Once upon a time it would, I think, have been considered derogatory to refer to a man as simply "the man" rather than "the gentleman". But it definitely wouldn't have been right to refer to "the woman" rather than "the lady". In many circles the latter rule still applies to some extent, which is fine by me. Oh, thanks imanishimel for a thread that got me thinking, and that I found related to a subject surprisingly close to my heart! Fisk
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Dear Fisk,
A random thought coming from reading your post:
Horses sweat, gentlemen perspire and ladies glow.
dxb.
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newbie
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newbie
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Oh YES! I'm not alone either. These are all good.
I once wrote a humorous piece for the local paper about gender-neutral language and how it was emasculating English.
Sounds like an appropriate piece for this thread modgod. Would there be a link to it? And I assume it would be too long to post here. Any ideas? Would love to see it.
Me too!
Robert
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old hand
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old hand
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long post ahead: I am copying this for youse guys. There ain't no link to it. It first appeared in The Whig-Standard Magazine (I believe - am a bit hazy on the details - MIGHT have been on the op/ed page of The Whig, instead) probably getting on for 10 years ago. I made it the first piece in my self-published book. Hope the anticipation will not have led you to believe it's superlative; 'taint bad, tho'.....IMHO, but then I wrote it so I'm biased. Don't know how to do the copyright sign but eh, I'm putting it up in a public forum - I can't control it nooooowwwwwww..... A slightly hersterical look at the future of neutered Englishby Mary SteerOne of the sad side-effects of modern society's attempts to make the sexes equal is the bastardization of the English language. Because man as a suffix or even as a blanket term for the human race is no longer accepted as being generic, many fine and inoffensive words like chairman and alderman have become "personalized." In some case the easy option that could please everybody has been overlooked - chair or head for leaders of departments, for example - in favour of castrating the language. How long will it be before origins of words are completely ignored, and the words changed in the name of equality? I can see it now.... The face of scholarship will change the world over. Those studying the past will be known as "theirstory" majors, because some history is only half a story until you've heard herstory, too. People will no longer use molasses for cooking or as a spread on bread. But to use moladdies would also be sexist - this knife cuts both ways - so that fine, sweet, gooey substance will become known as "mobairns." Similarly, sailors will use windbairns instead of windlasses, and pirates will slit each other's throats with cutbairns. When the devout attend church on Sunday, they will not be singing hymns - nor will they be singing hyrs. Musical praise will be called "pyrsongs," that both sexes may sing them with equanimity. But certain words will always resist being neutered in this way, and these words must be allowed to vary in accordance with the sex to which they are being applied. Women with colds, hayfever or other allergies will take antiherstamines; and while women may write missives (or msives) and make mistakes (or mstakes), men may write misterives and make misterakes. The next time a bomb is dropped, whether it's deemed a missile, msile or misterile will depend on who pressed the button. Medical terminology will change. Men in their 40s and 50s who begin acting half their age will no longer be referred to as going through male menopause; the redundant qualifier will be dropped. At the same time, females will begin womenstruating at puberty and will go through womenopause later in life. Hysterectomies, because of the sex on which they are performed, will be termed herstorectomies. And herpes, which can be contracted and transmitted by either sex, will become theirpes, giving rise to terrible puns about warning people to mind theirpes and q's.... Gender-specific names for well-known objects will be replaced by names which might apply equally to men or women. Instead of douglas fir or jack pine trees, we will have lesley/ie firs and frances/is pines. The Oscars will have to be rechristened; so will the Neilsen ratings, which are, after all, sexist in their first syllable. Never mind that they may have been named after someone; they're still sexist. After a generation or two of such neutralizing of the English language, English speakers everywhere will become so confused that they will become theirmaphroditic, like snails, solving the problem of gender relations for all concerned. Let's face it. Neutralizing the language isn't going to do much for equality between the sexes. Changing a word doesn't change an ingrained attitude. The changes that will be good for both men and women in creating an equal-opportunity society will not be artificial ones imposed by one sex or the other in the name of "progress." For real, lasting change to come about, the brain and the heart, and not the tongue, must evolve. (the end.)
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That was hersterical!  Or is it theirsterical? 
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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re:"mobairns." Similarly, sailors will use windbairns instead of windlasses, and pirates will slit each other's throats with cutbairns.
Bairns is (was 10 years ago) used in Canada? i only know it as a scot's word. and one my grandmother, but not my mother used. My great grandmother was born and raised in irish countryside. i don't know if rubrick is about but i have never heard bairns from a dubliner.
or were you living in another english speaking part of the world? (scotland for example?)
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