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A report from their Rome correspondent in today's Melbourne Age mentions the public sign "Grazie per non fumare" (Thanks for not smoking) where all the words are Italian but it does not make sense, as it is an English construction translated word for word.
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Carpal Tunnel
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What would the proper construction be, then, please?
This brings to mind another question: if this is an
example of anastrophe, if the words were in the correct
order, then would it be a strophe?
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Carpal Tunnel
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how about: grazie per non aver fumato
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Where's emanuela when we need her??
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Carpal Tunnel
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Jackie, great pun. But alas, not so. tsuwm, once again you are perfect in the present  Speaking of verbose Italian: trains in Europe (this may have changed - it's been 10 yrs since I rode one - but if it has changed, I will always cherish the thought) sport warning signs posted in 5 languages. Four say, literally: "Do not lean out the window" (German is all I remember: "Nicht hinauslehnen!") Italian, however, tells you WHY: "E pericoloso sporgersi"
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Anna,
I had enough trouble understanding public transport signs written in my native English. For the first few years of riding Melbourne's trams as a schoolboy, I was puzzled by the signs "HAIL CARS HERE" at tram stops. The expression conjured up images of taxis with a sort of bullet-proof roof to guard against our notoriously inclement weather!
The signs advising passengers how to "alight" were a mystery, too, until my vocabularly improved sufficiently.
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old hand
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old hand
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"E pericoloso sporgersi"
The most I can make of this is "the periscope sponges"
(I don't speak Italian.)
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Carpal Tunnel
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Marty, if it makes you feel any better, I had a lot of trouble with the sign "MIND YOUR HEAD" over London tram doors.
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Carpal Tunnel
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(I don't speak Italian.)I don't either. But I read it, to a certain degree. You want the literal translation or the contextual one?
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I remember attending a talk by a US professor speaking on "plain language for lawyers" ( - an oxymoron, I hear you say). One of his examples was a set of fire instructions on the back of a hotel room door which concluded with the message "If you are deaf and/or dumb, please let reception know in advance so that appropriate arrangements can be made."
His point was; why the "and/or", why not simply "or"? Would someone otherwise read the sign and think "Oh it's OK I'm deaf AND dumb so I don't need to let the front desk know in advance"?!?!?
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Carpal Tunnel
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and/or
This lazy construction is one which I am frequently guilty of using. Can anybody think of a situation in which it would be acceptable?
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Pooh-Bah
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I had enough trouble understanding public transport signs written in my native English.
A late nineteenth century British railway company had great trouble from a literary figure of the day (and I totally forget who it was) who wrote to the company inquiring into the meaning of the signs that read, "No Smoking Permitted in This Carriage."
The general tenor of his lengthy correspondence was to discover just what was this "No Smoking" that was permitted in certain carriages, and whether it might be injurious to his health. (At no time did he suggest that their use of English might be faulty.)
The company, aparently, went to great lengths to convince him that there was nothing for him to fear, but as they refused to acknowledge - if, indeed, they realised - that the notice was badly phrased, they merely dug themselves into an ever deeper morass of mutual misunderstanding.
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Pooh-Bah
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Can anybody think of a situation in which it would be acceptable?
When writing on a postage stamp?
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old hand
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I have a suspicion that this is again one of the treasures we owe to the lawyers. If a law reads "those who own a car or a bike are supposed to know traffic rules", some freak could object (interpreting the "or" as an "exclusive or"): I have both, so I am exempt.
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Pooh-Bah
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I have a suspicion that this is again one of the treasures we owe to the lawyers.
I'm not so sure. In the good old days (i.e, C19, of course) lawyer's draughtsmen were paid so much per word for legal documents, so they would have been more likely to write, "those who own a car or a bike or both a car and a bike are supposed to know traffic rules," thus increasing their emolument by seven units times the rate.
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Marty, if it makes you feel any better, I had a lot of trouble with the sign "MIND YOUR HEAD" over London tram doors.
Anna,
We appear to have achieved confluence (or perhaps entanglement to avoid the mixed metaphor) with the thread "Directions" in Wordplay and Fun. Think I'll relocate over there.
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I think lawyers these days would tend to say "those who own a car or a bike(or both)" or "those who own a car and bike (or either)". No less a person than Fowler labelled the two types of OR as being either disjunctive (A or B but not both) or copulative (Aor B or both). Never could understand why it isn't just "conjunctive"!
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Carpal Tunnel
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copulative ... conjunctive
Guess it would add whole new layers of meaning to conjuctivitus?
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Carpal Tunnel
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whole new layers of meaning to conjuctivitus?
I hope not--conjunctivitis is a nasty eye inflammation.
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Carpal Tunnel
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conjuctivitus--conjunctivitis Hey, Jackie, u no i carnt spill 
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>> Where's emanuela when we need her??
Funny: I was some days in Canada, and in fact | noticed that this way of writing shows a difference in the culture:
We are more direct: we could write
NON FUMARE (= Don't smoke)
or
E' VIETATO FUMARE (= to smoke is forbidden).
Ciao
Emanuela
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Hey, Jackie, u no i carnt spill
Sorry, sweet mav. T'wasn't a chastisement in any sense.
It's just that I can't knowingly put something wrong without some specific reason.
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Your translation from Italian is just as funny as the original translation from English into Italian. "E' pericoloso sporgersi" is a warning about the danger of "sticking your head too far" out of.. or into...
Italian warning signs are just that: warning. The "Grazie per non fumare" is not a warning. It should read: "Vietato fumare". This sign carries an order and would leave the person the choice and responsibility for the actions taken and possibly suffer the consequences for it. This approach leaves the person with the dignity of making choices rather than the guity feeling for not having satisfied the request for which has received anticipated Thanks. Hence the difference between English and Italian.
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