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stranger
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stranger
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I don't know whether this has been discussed before -
Now that the Ms. title has been accepted - is it time for a word that is a combination of Mr. and Ms. which could be used for either sexes. Often when there is a name from which the sex of the person cannot be determined those of the offices dump a Mr. in front of the name, even if it might be a woman. In such cases a neutral word of address would help.
Is there already such a word and if not - are their any suggestions?.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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A common form of address seems to be to leave it out altogether. People are frequently listed as David Smith, or just D Smith. I do some medical work using a computer system that requires that a title be used. The problem is that frequently the letters that arrive requesting medical appointments seem to skip the title and hospital notes seem not to show them. I think that the public services got tired of having to correct the titles all the time that they decided to skip them to save time. I'm inclined to change my system to match, although I'm sure that to the older generation in particular it sounds rather rude.
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old hand
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old hand
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> Are their any suggestions?. Ladyboy 
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Grant everyone honourary PhDs - then everyone can have the gender-free title of Doctor! 
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Carpal Tunnel
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For what it's worth ... if there is no title - Dr. or Rev. etc. - or designations - Mr, Mrs, Ms - I use the whole name.
Example : Dear D. Smith - or - Dear David Smith.
So far no complaints.
The rules of address are so complicated - (and there are a few of us left who do remember them !) - that I have opted for the simplest way when the status and/or gender of the person is unknown to me - as above.
You also noted : I'm inclined to change my system to match, although I'm sure ...the older generation ... think .. it ..rather rude.
As one of the older generation I have sighed and accepted it as part of the changing times
.. but ..
what I do find rude is when someone I do not know addresses me by my first name without first asking my permission to do so!
Now, how's that for being a stuffy old phart?
Doesn't it annoy you when you are on the phone and you know the person calling must have your full name in front of him/her and they decide arbitrarily to call you by your first name? Is it so hard for them to ask a woman "Do you prefer Ms, Miss or Mrs?" If Mrs Jones is a Doctor, she will either say so or go with one of the ordinary forms of address.
When you get an answer specifyiing the choice then you say, "Certainly (Ms, Mrs. Miss, Doctor, Reverend, etc). Thank you." and proceed!
Whippersnappers,didn't their mother's teach them any manners or were they born in a barn? mumble mumble mumble .... Not you, dear Drow, those anomymous callers !....and by the way -- WELCOME!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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what I do find rude is when someone I do not know addresses me by my first name without first asking my permission to do so!
Now, how's that for being a stuffy old phart?
Now, this is going back over 35 years, when I was actually interested in etiquette, but, if the Emily Post part of my brain still has anything left there, I remember reading that once you're over 40, you can address people by their first names. I could have an error in what I remember having read, but that's how the "rule" has remained fixed in my head, one that I found impossible to follow once reaching 40. Mr. Wallack, my beloved strings teacher, I called Mr. Wallack though I was 50 even though he kept saying, "Call me Norman!!"
Bowing regards,
Wordwind
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Carpal Tunnel
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Just out of curiousity (since I do not expect to be there to find out personally  ): at W'za, will folks be calling each other by their board-names or by their real-life names? [would heads swivel every time some one says "dave" -e]
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addict
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Good question, Keiva! I know of at least one other "Kim" and I have no idea for sure, but I would expect her to be there. Of course, you can all call me "Angel" if you are so inclined. I am used to responding to it in person, on the phone, or online. Should be fun to see how many share a common first name!
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Carpal Tunnel
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I was taught to address my elders by Mr or Mrs but that is getting harder to do as I grow elder (sic.) myself. I mean, when I was 12, a fifty year old would be called Mr or Mrs but now, a fifty year old is only ten years older than me.  . At this stage, I've noticed I have a twenty-year span to the Mr or Mrs use. I do use Mr when being first introduced to someone of note (eg. the president of a company) then switch to first name basis as appropriate. As to myself... I don't usually bristle when somebody who I've been introduced to calls me by my first name. I do bristle if some sales person who I don't know calls me on the phone and does so. Mind you, I bristle at any call from a sales person. Oh well, never mind
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Carpal Tunnel
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HS - HomoSapien. We'll need to start making distinctions between us and AI. We should do so now when it comes to Junk Mail. 
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Carpal Tunnel
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I too bristle at any call from a sales person. But once in a great while, when I'm able to implement "Don't get mad; get even! -- oh, the joy!!!!
Keiva [insurance agents my specialty]
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I really hate it when my doctor calls me "Elizabeth" (sometimes even "Lizzy"), yet I have to call him/her "doctor".
The doctor's office I go to has three Dr. Rums. There's Jim Rum, Bill Rum, and Jennifer Rum. When I call, I have to say I'm a patient of Dr. Jennifer's or, I want an appointment with Dr. Jennifer. Otherwise, I end up with her brother or her dad! I have no problem with a first name basis there. The way I look at it, she knows just about everything there is to know about me, up close and personal. Why not use our first names?
I do, however, hate when an unknown uses my first name. That irritates the shnit outta me on the phone.
But, when my kids were growing up and their friends would come over, out of respect, of course, they would try to call me Mrs. Neis......, using my children's last name. Unfortunately, I was Mrs. San.....! I always asked them to call me "Kim". After all, that is my name, and was much easier for them.
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old hand
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What an interesting point of discussion. Thanks Drow. This much is true... All designators of persons have a functional application in the context of the pertinent flow of positive evolutionary information.Now be honest. How many many of you read the above sentence with any application of inquiring thought? This sentence though, in fact, is fundamental to the understanding of the filtering mechanism of the human mind. Without this filtering mechanism, informational input would be indiscriminatingly willy-nilly, and many of us would buy the Brooklyn Bridge. And so the collective mind of men, i.e. culture, has saw fit to designate some men Doctors, some men Lawyers, and some men simply, Sir. And no man, regardless of his iconoclastic penchants, can resist the import of these semantics. Sad, but it's fair. I'm guilty, are you?
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I once got a call offering me a free glamour make-over. I laughed so hard the caller offered to call for help two states away.
Used to be that no one could ever get my name right and I said without guilt, she's not here. But those glory days are over, sigh. I'd probably be more offended by a gender neutral title than my first name. (I think I'm old-fashioned.)
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I have to say, I object violently to being called 'Ms' 'cause I think it's just plain ugly.
Anyway, if you think we have problems with forms of address, then pity the poor Germans! Women automatically become 'Frau' around the age of 18 - when they look that up to translate it, they find 'Mrs' so they end up calling every woman over the age of 18 'Mrs so-and-so' irrespective of their marital status.
Then there's the whole subject of Herr Professor Doktor .... and his wife who automatically gets the same title, but don't get me started on that!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The doctor's office I go to has three Dr. Rums. There's Jim Rum, Bill Rum, and Jennifer Rum. When I call, I have to say I'm a patient of Dr. Jennifer's or, I want an appointment with Dr. Jennifer. Otherwise, I end up with her brother or her dad!
Not to be frivolous (oh no, never, nnnnno watches,of course not), but the problem can be expressed in a nutshell in this li/ovely telephone conversation:
"Hello, O'Callahan, O'Callahan, O'Callahan, and O'Callahan, Attorneys-at-Law, how may I help you?"
"I'd like to talk to O'Callahan, please."
"He's with a client just now."
"And O'Callahan?
"I'm sorry, she's in court this afternoon."
"Oh. How about O'Callahan, then?"
"I'm afraid that won't be possible; he's on vacation until next week."
"Then may I speak to O'Callahan, please?"
"Speaking..."
{Feel free to substitute for name and profession as desired)
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veteran
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veteran
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True story: In college I met the smartest guy I've ever known (also one of the nicest guys). He scored like a 39 or 49 out of 120 on the Putnam exam - without studying. His name was Dung Nguyen. (The name is pronounced something like Yoong Nwin.)
I call his house one time to talk about homework in the simulation class we took together. He's living with a bunch of other guys. Someone answers and I ask if I can speak to Dung. "Which one?" I say, "Dung Nguyen." He asks again, "Which one?" Well, the one who goes to U of L. "There are three of us named Dung Nguyen who go to U of L." By now I'm thinking this guy's pulling my leg. Okay, the guy I'm looking for is really, *REALLY* smart. "Oh! THAT Dung!" And withing 10 or 15 seconds I'm talking to my buddy.
I'm thinking Dung in the Vietnamese community is comparable to Kim among Koreans. (I'm now reflecting on fond memories of my friend Kim I haven't talked to in 4 or 5 years, but it's not pertinent so I won't elaborate.)
k
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Carpal Tunnel
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FF, you went to U of L? Cool! (By the way, some time ago, I educated these folks on its being U *of* L, vs. UK being UK.)
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OK, I'll bite - what exactly is U of L? I know the question is semi off-topic, although it could be construed a term of address I suppose, but I wouldn't mind knowing. I mean, I went to a UL too, although in my case it was London but how would anyone know that if I just said UL? What differentiates one university's abbreviation from another? Here I think there's only one UL as the others all do it the other way round, but that can get terribly confusing too - how do you know if someone means Leeds, Loughborough, Leicester...
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Carpal Tunnel
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Hi, Sweetie--a quick repeat from a native of Louisville. The University of Louisville is always known as U of L; I dunno why. The Uni. of Kentucky is just UK--no "of". It just *is that way. (Hi, musick.)
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Carpal Tunnel
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I remember that thread! I was impressed.. Jackie mentioned going to (a lecture? a exhibit?the derby?) and afterwards, meeting the president of UK.. it was clear to me, the president of University of Kentucky-- but several people corrected her and pointed, the US has a president, and the UK has Prime Minister... it was so funny.. long long ago!
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>I mean, I went to a UL too
You too? Me too! Mine was UCL (not UCLA)
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>I remember that thread! I was impressed.. Yes, a cultural highpoint of the board, one of Jackie's more authoritative and philosophical posts in praise of the Backstreet Boys, as I remember. Here's the part relevant to the UK debate: Sat Jun 16 21:46:26 2001
“I ate in Lexington fairly often when I was in the Lexington Philharmonic, but that's so long ago I don't remember anywhere in particular. Man--once, the president of UK gave a reception for the Philharmonic at his house: l-o-n-g white leather sofa, and white shag carpet that was ankle-deep!”
http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=30732I heard of a shag-pile carpet but ... did Jackie really say "shag carpet"? I'm now more than a little worried about the morals of our administratrix!Once again, I thank heavens that she can't read our private messages - I think we'll have to send a message around to seek out new members for the gutter police.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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For the second time...A-HEM!
Jo, c'mere a minute--I have something for you...
I'm not sure it's being manufactured any more, but yes, shag carpeting was very popular in the '70's. I don't think that interpretation of shag was known very much here till that "The Spy Who..." movie came out. I do know lots of people hadn't known it--the term was "explained" in the media. (By innuendo, of course.)
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