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#62649 03/28/02 10:11 PM
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I agree that I don't want to limit my own readings to things that aren't Xist. I was specifically referring to what we force other people's kids to read.

I'm one of those men who reads mostly male writers. I don't plan it. It just turns out that way. Well, I guess I do plan it in a way. There are women writers on my list, but they keep getting pushed to the bottom.

I suppose I could remedy that. I recently collected all the scraps of paper I had written down books on and was going to consolidate them, but the washing machine got to them before I did. My new list is pretty short and if I were inclined I reckon I could move some women up there. But I really try to keep on top the stuff that I'm really most interested in. For example, War and Peace I've been meaning to read for years and also Pride and Prejudice. But I've wanted to read W&P a lot longer. I started a coupla times and got sidetracked. That's really gonna be next. Then I'm thinking Longitude, but I'm not sure. Then maybe Frankenstein (hey, there's a woman). Assuming that's my order. It might not be. P&P is a ways down on the list, even the new one. If I get to her, it will be an accident really.

It would be good if I could read faster. I have pretty good comprehension, but I read very slowly. I guess I could read a little faster (not much), but I just don't enjoy things much when I do.

For my kids, I don't usually think about the role of the women, with one exception. I can't stand the beautiful, happy princess kinda stories. They're allowed to read them, but they know already that I'm not reading it to them. Usually I think about whether the story is going to be interesting to all of us. My girls have read some of the Little Women excerpts (I guess that's what they are). As I said, I don't really censor what the girls read. When we come across something stupid, we'll often discuss what was stupid about it. Don't you think so-and-so was a jackass? What could this person have done besides act like a bonehead? OTOH, I make a point to brainwash them pretty regularly about *something important*. At least once a week, I talk to them about sex, peer pressure, hormones, drugs, not waiting for a man or anyone else to solve your problems, what have you. Lotta repeats, so they get it all many times. Maybe that's insufficient. It's one thing to say "See this woman is a wimp" and another to let them see how a strong woman acts. On take-your-daughters to work day, I brought them to a meeting where my bosses were two women. I wanted them to see how women could boss men around. I'm not entirely oblivious to the issue. I suppose a little reading to reinforce it would be in order, if I could find something that we're all interested in. The reading thing is more of a bonding thing than an educational one. From the school's persective it's educational. But I've noticed behavioral changes depending on how frequently I read to them. I don't know. I need to think about this a while.

k



#62650 03/28/02 10:30 PM
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Dear FF: I re-read P&P recently and reluctantly concluded I did not admire it. Her Mr. Darcy is a phony stuffed shirt in my estimation. He may be JA's idea of Prince Charming. One other thing. I just don't believe novelists' assertion that anybody falls instantly deeply in love. Not if they have any brains.
Little Women doesn't hide the propaganda well enough. I get a laugh out of the part where the girls take some lobsters "to the poor Irish children" to show their charitable consciousness. Rough, but nourishing, you know. Cheap then, but stupidly expensive now.


#62651 03/29/02 06:06 AM
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Faldage posted:

if I remember, the one about the village smithy was antisemitic

http://www.bartleby.com/102/59.html

???

Faldo, maybe he meant anti-smith-etic. You can see how the two might be confused!





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#62652 03/29/02 02:47 PM
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I've noticed there are a lot of things that are supposed to be really good that didn't do all that much for me. Even when I think the book is great on some technical level, or enjoyable at parts, I think it's been oversold.

Now I read Joyce's Ulysses a few months back. There were some pretty funny parts, but on the whole I've spent more comforting hours in my dentist's chair. Probably more than half of the book I spent wondering what in the hell he was talking about.

I've heard people talk about it and few lit majors seemed pretty impressed, but I read it because Robert Anton Wilson said no one had entered the twentieth century until he'd digested that great lump of tree flesh. I'd never read anything of RAW's, but a guy I respect has a high opinion of him. So I thought, what the heck. This must be 'a great book.' And maybe it is. But if I had to describe my experience with it in one word, it would have to be "agonizing."


k



#62653 03/29/02 06:10 PM
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more than half of the book I spent wondering what in the hell he was talking about.

I think with Joyce you have to concern yourself not with what the hell he's talking about but with how the hell he's talking about it.


#62654 03/29/02 06:25 PM
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If you enjoy puzzles, there are all too many books that provide them. But none of the solutions to the puzzles are worth the effort. There is so much worth learning, I choose not to waste time on puzzles.


#62655 03/29/02 07:39 PM
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The (one) problem with being sensitive to parents' wishes about what their children will be "forced" by their school to read is that so many viewpoints abound that there is nothing that somebody somewhere doesn't find objectionable. Where then are Authorities to find material for a reading list which is offensive to no one and yet still contains literature? (Isn't that just another roundabout metaphor for "Politics as usual"?)

Oversimplified, unfortunately, but inescapable.


This just _has_ to be YART


#62656 03/29/02 08:23 PM
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Ah, Bill, I love puzzles. Not all of them, but some of them. But it's like eating crawdads - you reckon at the start you're going to burn more calories getting through the shell than you'll gain from eating the meat. Also, there are some professions where solving puzzles is a good way to keep sharp. It's like getting to the interesting part without all the tedious junk that accompanies most real-world problems.

People read for different reasons. Many read to figure out how to do something. They also read for enjoyment, for enlightenment, for participation in humanity's conversation (bonding writ large). Maybe there are other reasons. Boredom? Showing off? Desperation? Pursuit of a good grade? 'Cause Daddy will tan my backside if I don't?

Anyways, I've moved Dubliners down near the bottom, which I reckon I'll reach in about 70 years.

k



#62657 03/29/02 08:25 PM
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The (one) problem with being sensitive to parents' wishes about what their children will be "forced" by their school to read is that so many viewpoints abound that there is nothing that somebody somewhere doesn't find objectionable. Where then are Authorities to find material for a reading list which is offensive to no one and yet still contains literature? (Isn't that just another roundabout metaphor for "Politics as usual"?)

There used to be a column in my Sunday paper's literary section which asked well-known writers a series of questions. One of those questions was:

What books shoudl be made compulsory reading?

The writers were nearly all unanimous in their declaration that No books shoudl be made compulsory!

I agree with this. Whereas I quite enjoyed a selection of the books I read at school until I was about 15 I swear I will never look at Wuthering Heights or Castle Rackrent again. Same goes for a lot of the Shakespearean plays but they were a bit dull anyway.

A continuous assessment on a selection of recommended reading books would have whet my appetite for more.

Now I believe that the next point was what makes recommended or acceptable reading? Well, up until not so long ago even the recommended reading books in this part of the world were being fiercely doctored and censored by ignorant parents who were blaming them for their daughters' pregnancies (of course it had nothing to do with that randy farmer who had just drunk ten pints). But I digress....

People will find fault with every sort of book that's written - even the most intentionally harmless novels are seen as debasing or sexist or racist or sectarian or whatever. No book is acceptable to everyone. That's been pointed out quite a lot on this very forum using Mark Twain as an example.

I like Twain and his humour and his very observant views and deft handling of the tough and often violent and lawless place that was the mississipi mid-west in the latter part of the 19th century. We don't like the 'n'-word and avoid it these days as it is unacceptable, unnecessary and 'politically incorrect' (a term I particularly despise). However, in Twain's time it was common, as were slavery, lynchings, misogyny and bigotry and he includes it in his writing to reflect the contemporary languge of the day even if he did not use it himself or agree with it. Jim Conrad and his several books on the subjects of slavery, piratry and hard-living on the high seas is another example.

I've been dying to say it for ages but Eric Blair (better known as George Orwell) was a policeman in Burma for several years. He eventually quit as he could not endure the racism and hatred inflicted by the East India Company on the natives. Blair was completely anti-racist and he describes his feelings (and those of the bigots) in the excellent Burma days. Not a lot of racist language in his text but the feeling you get when you read the conceited dialogue of the British officers is akin to hearing the worst racist slurs. It made my spine bristle, anyways. Blair managed to convey these emotions to paper without ever giving the impression that they were his own. That is true genius. I digress again....

Recommended reading material shoudl contain a broad range of widely read material from various ethnic writers. Since they are well-read then they are acceptable to the masses. Since they are from different ethnic groups it will encourage learning and understanding of different ethnic groups, cultures and backgrounds. And, if they are based on wide-ranging issues (either contemporary or historical) then they will inspire debate. And that is good.

That's my rant for this month!! Boy it felt good!


#62658 03/29/02 08:41 PM
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there is nothing that somebody somewhere doesn't find objectionable.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, wofa. To my shame, I have no idea whether my children's school system has banned certain things or not. I do know that, every so often, they'll bring home a slip that says, in effect, "The class is going to be studying XYZ. XYZ has ABC in it, that some parents in the past have found objectionable. If you do, we have an alternate work available."

I wonder, FF, if perhaps the reason you tend not to read women writers is that so often they tend to focus on emotional interactions, just as in conversations*? I think you guys, in general, tend to want to focus on the deed getting accomplished, and have less interest in the why. Note: I am not asserting that this is the way most women write--I've never made a conscious comparison. I do know that, to me, "romance novels" are not worth reading, and even in "real" novels, I can only take so much of 'Mary was in a dark mood, wondering if her love had deserted her'.

*Yeah, okay, I do this myself, but...it depends on who I'm talking to. I do pretty good "guy talk" when I want to!:-)
And I can keep my mouth shut, too, if that seems to be my companion's way. Silence doesn't bother me at all. I'd much rather people take my silence as indicative that I am a fool, than to open my mouth and remove all doubt. Though I've done that, too, on occasion...sigh.


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