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#59187 - 03/02/02 10:47 AM Re: Dialects
RhubarbCommando Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
but any that vehemently agree?

It's contrary to my constitution to be vehement, but I certainly strongly support the principle underlying your suggestion, Musick.
I would not recommend trying to teach anyone to speak a different dialect, but I am very much in favour of young people being made very aware of the different ways our language can be used, and that a different way of speaking does NOT mean that the speaker is of less (or more) value than any other because of it. It is, as we are aware here, the content of speech that is important and should be the basis of any judgement of worthiness.


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#59188 - 03/02/02 06:48 PM Re: Dialects
Capital Kiwi Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/00
Posts: 3146
Loc: Northamptonshire, England
Actually, I think that teaching dialect (elocution?) is a complete waste of time. First of all, you will never succeed if the pupil doesn't have an ear for the different rhythms of the various dialects. Secondly, what is the purpose?

My goddaughter, bless her little cotton socks, goes to a plutey English public school (read "private", USns). She is taught by teachers who speak RP, she is surrounded by pupils who speak various levels of RP and she can do a great imitation of RP herself; she has the music. But when she's at home, although out of her mother's earshot, she reverts to her normal accent which is pretty damned broad Northamptonshire, dropped aitches and gees all over the place. In other words, she's faking it at school.

I think that as long as one has an understanding of the meanings of the colloquialisms inherent in the brogues or patrois which one comes into contact with there is no real need for people to learn to speak "differently".

Except for two particular cases. Brum and Geordie should be stamped out, by force using mounted troops if necessary. They are taking "viva la difference" just tooooo far!

_________________________
The idiot also known as Capfka ...

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#59189 - 03/03/02 06:59 PM Re: Dialects
musick Offline
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 2658
Loc: Chicago
In my first post I said: I think we should be teaching all the current dialects of English that we can. I'll ammend that statement to say that teaching what dialect is and being aware of its intrinsic value as its words hold specific meaning (as you suggest) would be more in line with my intent. However, the person that comes to school and is told that the other 90% of their linguistic life is "without quality" is getting quite a different education than your goddaughter who is has the ability to fake it, and I think it makes a bit more sense to teach "Northamptonshire" to a class of 75% Northamptonshire-ites than it does to teach the whole class "RP".I'm guessing this is the Brit equivalent to SE pronouciation.

I agree that actually teaching the skills to adjust one's language and speech to eloquently manifest a specific "foreign" dialect is damn close to a waste of time (almost as wasteful as teaching SE sometimes), yet certainly not to someone who has "the gift of song".


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#59190 - 03/03/02 09:50 PM Re: Dialects
consuelo Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 2636
Loc: Caribbean
Okay. Now I can agree with you. As a person who has the "gift of song", but only as far as languages, accents and dialects are concerned(drat it!), I know that I have a gift and that no amount of "teaching"read browbeating could have helped me attain this. Only by exposure to various languages, accents, and dialects did I even know that the gift was mine. This, incidently, was not achieved in school. I travelled. I still travel. I will always travel.


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#59191 - 03/04/02 08:27 AM Re: Dialects
RhubarbCommando Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
OK, Musick - I'm definitely prepared to agree vehemently with you, given your gloss to what you first said.
It'll be interesting to find out what happens to CapK s god-daughter when she grows up. My two were born and bred in Northampton, and had very broad Northamptonian accents (which would be significantly different from CapK's g.d. if she lives, as I suspect, in Wellingboro - that's a whole twelve miles away!!) My wife and I speak a London debasement of RP (yes - it is the same sort of thing as SE) - guess how my kids speak now, in their early thirties? Yep, you're right - not a trace of N'thampton, me dook, but a flattish Estuary English.
My daughter did live in London for about six years from age eighteen, but my son never has done - and they both speak the same.


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#59192 - 03/04/02 08:36 AM Re: Dialects
RhubarbCommando Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/23/00
Posts: 2204
Except for two particular cases. Brum and Geordie should be stamped out, by force using mounted troops if necessary. They are taking "viva la difference" just tooooo far!
(translation of foreign terms:
Geordie= someone from Newcastle-on-Tyne or the language they speak
Brum= Birmingham

No, CapK - can't agree with you there. Geordie's a bit like Guiness ( apart from being of just as thick a consistency and just as dark) - it's an acquired taste - but it is a very colourful language which would be great to write poetry in, if only other people would be able to understand it.
As for Brum, it is absolutely the best language for telling jokes in; the oxymoron between the sadness of the accent with the gaiety of the laughter invoked is nothing sghort of marvellous!
(Brummies make b****y good drinking partners, too! - it's a laugh a second with them - almost as good as the Cockneys.)


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#59193 - 03/04/02 04:12 PM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/12/00
Posts: 3409

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#59194 - 03/06/02 11:15 AM Re: Dialects
rkay Offline
member

Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 144
Loc: London, UK
But do they speak 'Estuary'? Somehow I doubt it, as that implies mixing up tenses and persons, replacing 'th' with 'f' (as in free instead of three). I would suggest that they probably speak a more modern version of RP (Received Pronounciation). There's been much in the press recently about how the Queen has changed how she speaks and that the Beeb no longer stick strictly to RP. To my mind, it's just that RP is moderating/modulating slightly.


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#59195 - 03/07/02 08:41 AM Re: "modern RP v Estuary Eng
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/22/00
Posts: 1981
>I would suggest that they probably speak a more modern version of RP

Have you noticed that our Tone (Tony Blair for furriners) when making off the cuff remarks likes to use a bit of "modern PR" - sounds pretty estuary to me. I think that he likes to model his conversation style on the classic after-match interview, "Well, the lads had it all to do but in the event they pulled out all the stops, the other side were sick as parrots, we were pretty gobsmacked by the whole thing ....".


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#59196 - 03/07/02 09:38 AM Re: "modern RP v Estuary Eng
rkay Offline
member

Registered: 12/13/00
Posts: 144
Loc: London, UK
and even more irritating - have you noticed that he can't string more than about three words together without breaking off for emphasis?


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