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#50326 12/19/01 04:15 PM
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Helen, I must register my violent diagreement with what you posted in white. But as it is historical, not linguistic, I imagine that frother discussion would be inappropriate, as well as divisive.


#50327 12/19/01 04:19 PM
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our grandparents woulda said, "Damned Yankee" to them furriners frum the north.

You mean to tell me that in additon to the common 3-syllable word "damnyankee", there's a separate word "yankee"? When could one possibly have occasion to use the latter rather than the former?


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Keiva, i am so sorry--it was not my intent to offend-- but to offer a glaring example of how Us groups can define there actions as good-- no matter how evil the actions are..

In Us vs. Them conflicts-- it is often the Them that are most like Us that become singled out for the worst punishment.. and the Us defines its self as the epitimy of goodness, health, wisdom, and the Them as evil, sick and crafty, or having false wisdom.. and since the difference between the Us and Them are so hard to disern, the violence to and fear of Them is all the greater. this is why religious conflict are often so terrible.. one can think of ireland, or bosnia, or india, -- where, if the group one choses to align with, become religious, it draws an Us/Them line that is very difficult for total outsiders to see.. but is one that is glaring inside local population.. and creates conflicts that are characterized by being extremely violent and bloody--

the Us would be the group in power, the Them the minority, or powerless group..
the most famous Us/Them example in the US i can think of is the Salem Witch trial.. where neighbor turned against neighbor-- and the Us/Them dividing line seems to have been not much more than who was neighborly, and got along, and who was reclusive, poor, old, or lived slightly further out of the small town..

but the Us group in Salem was very clear in expressing "God was on their side" -- this use of rightiousness that has absolutely no basis, is characterist of this type conflict.. i chose an example of an Us group, that, with time and history, is is clear to see as evil. but at the time, they were successfull, because of how they defined Us/Them WWII was a way for the world to re-define Us/Them. but truth be told, we didn't get involved in WWII because of the internal Us/Them conflict-- and true outsider rarely do.. it was only afterwards that we, the Us the new Power, could look back, and define the Then as evil. before and during the war, many countries, include US, closed their borders to refugees to the internal Us/Them conflict in germany.

and while gai jin is used for foriegners in Japan, and foriegners are generally considered to be "sub standard", the real mistreament of foriegners is saved for Koreans. since ethnicly (and biologically) there is almost no difference between Japanese and Koreans-- Koreans are vilified in japan.. there is a great fear that one of Them, (Koreans) could pass them selves off as Us, (Japanese).

one common characterist of Us/Them is the words and language used by the Us group. ethnic slurs, and terms to define non Us, are always perjoritive. since there is often clear visible difference, between Us/ Them, it falls to language to create the differences.. when They do it, it is lies and propoganda, when We do it, we are spreading the truth....

AlQada fighters are insane, suisidal, terrorist... the US marines in Afganistan are couragious, freedom fighting heros..
(guess who is Us and who is Them in this conflict..)


#50329 12/19/01 05:29 PM
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So it's a Mondegreengo



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#50330 12/19/01 05:38 PM
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...or, it's all Greek to me. (no mondegreengos here)

http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-gre1.htm


#50331 12/19/01 05:41 PM
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Flatlander:

There are two REALLY great books about rural Vermont (perhaps that's a redundancy), one called The King of Vermont and the other entitled hmm, oh yeah, Beyond Yonder. I recommend them highly to anyone who likes good humor. They were the last two books I read to my father before he died, and I can still remember the tears of laughter he shed over the confrontations between the Woodchucks and the Flatlanders.

He lived in an area of similar rurality, where the locals called everyone else the c'meres, because they would do things like c'mere and cause trouble, c'mere and spend money, c'mere and pay taxes to support the locals' unemployment checks, etc. This confrontation is almost inevitable when one culture imposes itself on another.

I'm using it in my next novel, as a matter of fact. Sheesh, one of these days I have to find the time to work on it! Maybe after I retire next year.

TEd



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Helen, I think I said that this would be an unwise subject to discuss.

I have therefore deleted (except for the preceding sentence) a longer reply I made ten minutes ago.

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>Evil men may subjectively claim high-minded intent. IMHO, that claim does not make them, or their actions, any less evil.

I fail to see how anything more (or less) was implied by Helen's original statement (in white).

(you're right, this line of discussion should have been left alone...)


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well, i finally understood Keiva objection.. and i don't think he was being nit picking.. and i went and edited it -- to make it clear it that i was not agreeing with the nazi's.

and i have some very real reservations and concerns about our involvement in afganistan, and about the way we are using propaganda in the current confict... starting right from the idea that Bush has declared War on terrorism.. since our constitution hold only congress can declare war..

do i think the past government of the afganistan was a fair (even if not democratic) government--no.. did they harbor and protect the AlQada, the organization that seems to be responsible for the attacts of Sept 11? yes. did we (the US) need to take action? yes. do i think we have taken the right action? no, and i realize, just saying that, in the current war of propoganda that is going on, make me sound like a traitor. and that is scary. free speach, and the ability of citizen to open disagree with the government is not a crime!

the war on terrorism seem to have 2 main fronts.. one in afganistan, and one right here.. and the one here is being fought by people who are carefully crafting language to hid their actions.. and their actions in my opinion are chiselling away my rights.


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Helen, thank you. Understanding you edit, I have no remaining disagreement with your original post.

http://www.plagiarist.com/poetry/?wid=511, whose ending I quote here, may set the right tone:
So mind your manners when a native, please,
And doubly when you visit
And between us all A rapport may fall
Ecstatically exquisite.
One simple thought, if you have it pat,
Will eliminate the coroner:
You may be a native in your habitat,
But to foreigners you’re just a foreigner.

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